lcs Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Rulebook 8.3.3 "Standby" – This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds. Very recent RO class, several students got the impression 1 to 4 seconds is "recommended". "Should" does not mean "will" or "shall". Did the students get the wrong impression? So what happens when an RO goes "Are You Ready", (Instant) Beeep or waits 20seconds with the shooter in the start position? I think the students got the wrong impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Youre interpretation of Should is correct. It is not the same as Will or Shall. If the RO skips the Standby command, I would not go and ask them if they could please present the commands in their correct order. If I am waiting for more than 5-8 seconds, I will turn and ask the RO if there is a problem with the timer. Now, If I see a shooter start to lean or creep, I will wait until they fall over to start the timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I think "Should" was used to keep someone getting a quick beep or a long wait for the beep from trying to arbitrate for a re-shoot if the stage went poorly. it is a recommendation and the correct way to do it, but if it is off for some reason (forgot to count in head, couldn't find button on timer...) it is a no fault no foul situation. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 To add fuel to the fire I think the window is too long personally. I think every shooter should get the same amount of time between stand by and the beep. Is it equitable if you use random start times between 1-4 seconds? I typically count thousand one, thousand two and hit it. I think it is more fair to keep it the same from shooter to shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I'd also remind people of the disservice that a short beep or extremely long beep does to the shooter. Just because it says should doesn't mean we should implement a quick beep as the expectations are - via the rule book - 1 to 4 seconds. The NROI creed charges us to assist - and I find that not following the rule because we are not directly demanded to do so is really a "gotcha" type thing we ought not be doing. At the same respect, being super consistent is being a disservice to the competitive aspect as well - if I can watch you run 8 shooters and get a count on you - I can get a jump by counting myself off. Sometimes it doesn't work - but it's a better practice to vary your start times between that said 1-4 seconds every time. (Thank you Mr. Johnson) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) If they got the impression that being the RO means they are charged with trying to "mess" with the shooter at the start they definately got the wrong impression. The RO is not there to try and mess up the shooter at the start. The RO should be consistent with the start with all shooters. Short or long beeping them at random, that's just being a jerk IMHO. But like High Lord Gomer said, if they start leaning after "Standby" I will let them fall, and if they keep moving after "Make Ready" and assuming the start position I won't ask, "Are You Ready" until they stand still. Some folks I have RO'd keep moving thier arms slightly, or they rock back and forth, that sort of thing. I typically give a nice steady cadance, Are You Ready....Stand By....Beep. Edited March 29, 2012 by TMC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 If I get short beeped, I somehow never seem to hear it, and require a re-start. Fortunate thing, I guess. If the beep takes too long, I'll do the same as Gomer-- turn and ask if there's a problem. What's the point of violating the 1-4 second rule in the first place? Sure, room for mistakes and what not-- but am I missing something about doing it intentionally, for good reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 If I get short beeped, I somehow never seem to hear it, and require a re-start. Fortunate thing, I guess. If the beep takes too long, I'll do the same as Gomer-- turn and ask if there's a problem. What's the point of violating the 1-4 second rule in the first place? Sure, room for mistakes and what not-- but am I missing something about doing it intentionally, for good reason? What happens if the RO sees you twitch slightly, in response to the beep? Are you certain that you can hear a "short beep" and not move at all? By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 An English professor may tell you "should" is the past tense of "shall". Others may say "should" means "highly recommended". As for me, I give a few seconds after "standby", then hit the button. If I'm the shooter and feel an RO jerked me around with either a near instant beep or an extra long wait before the beep, I'll complain to the CRO, RM and finally NROI. But I don't think any RO worth their RO card would intentionally do that to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 If I get short beeped, I somehow never seem to hear it, and require a re-start. Fortunate thing, I guess. If the beep takes too long, I'll do the same as Gomer-- turn and ask if there's a problem. What's the point of violating the 1-4 second rule in the first place? Sure, room for mistakes and what not-- but am I missing something about doing it intentionally, for good reason? What happens if the RO sees you twitch slightly, in response to the beep? Are you certain that you can hear a "short beep" and not move at all? By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started. Keep in mind that for an RM twitch might not equal react...... When I work as an RM, I expect the stage staff to make every attempt to follow the rules and assist all competitors equitably, including starting competitors randomly, within 1-4 seconds.... Stuff happens. My finger's slipped off the button of the yellow timer too soon, and I've stopped the competitor and given him a change to reset himself. I've had timers die after stand-by and not beep -- same resolution.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 If I get short beeped, I somehow never seem to hear it, and require a re-start. Fortunate thing, I guess. If the beep takes too long, I'll do the same as Gomer-- turn and ask if there's a problem. What's the point of violating the 1-4 second rule in the first place? Sure, room for mistakes and what not-- but am I missing something about doing it intentionally, for good reason? What happens if the RO sees you twitch slightly, in response to the beep? Are you certain that you can hear a "short beep" and not move at all? By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started. Keep in mind that for an RM twitch might not equal react...... When I work as an RM, I expect the stage staff to make every attempt to follow the rules and assist all competitors equitably, including starting competitors randomly, within 1-4 seconds.... Stuff happens. My finger's slipped off the button of the yellow timer too soon, and I've stopped the competitor and given him a change to reset himself. I've had timers die after stand-by and not beep -- same resolution.... Is this an endorsement of Sin-ster's technique? What do you recommend a competitor to do if "short beeped"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 8.3.4 “Start Signal” – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from “Are You Ready?”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 To add fuel to the fire I think the window is too long personally. I think every shooter should get the same amount of time between stand by and the beep. Is it equitable if you use random start times between 1-4 seconds? I typically count thousand one, thousand two and hit it. I think it is more fair to keep it the same from shooter to shooter. Conversely, I always try to vary the time that I wait so that shooters don't catch on to a pattern and get an advantage on the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Conversely, I always try to vary the time that I wait so that shooters don't catch on to a pattern and get an advantage on the start. Me, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 If I get short beeped, I somehow never seem to hear it, and require a re-start. Fortunate thing, I guess. If the beep takes too long, I'll do the same as Gomer-- turn and ask if there's a problem. What's the point of violating the 1-4 second rule in the first place? Sure, room for mistakes and what not-- but am I missing something about doing it intentionally, for good reason? What happens if the RO sees you twitch slightly, in response to the beep? Are you certain that you can hear a "short beep" and not move at all? By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started. Keep in mind that for an RM twitch might not equal react...... When I work as an RM, I expect the stage staff to make every attempt to follow the rules and assist all competitors equitably, including starting competitors randomly, within 1-4 seconds.... Stuff happens. My finger's slipped off the button of the yellow timer too soon, and I've stopped the competitor and given him a change to reset himself. I've had timers die after stand-by and not beep -- same resolution.... Is this an endorsement of Sin-ster's technique? What do you recommend a competitor to do if "short beeped"? Either don't react -- don't start shooting the stage -- or finish it and appeal at the end..... As an RM, what I'd do vis-a-vis the competitor would be situation dependent. As far as the staff goes, I'd mention it at minimum, and have a counseling session if necessary.... I don't want a staff error affecting a shooter's run if I can help it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 I'm thinking 1 to 4 seconds as specified in 8.3.3 is more than recommended. I would presume the rule does not say "shall" or "will" because someone could have a bad run and demand a reshoot because the start signal was 7 seconds after Are you ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 To add fuel to the fire I think the window is too long personally. I think every shooter should get the same amount of time between stand by and the beep. Is it equitable if you use random start times between 1-4 seconds? I typically count thousand one, thousand two and hit it. I think it is more fair to keep it the same from shooter to shooter. To add fuel to the fire I think the window is too long personally. I think every shooter should get the same amount of time between stand by and the beep. Is it equitable if you use random start times between 1-4 seconds? I typically count thousand one, thousand two and hit it. I think it is more fair to keep it the same from shooter to shooter. Conversely, I always try to vary the time that I wait so that shooters don't catch on to a pattern and get an advantage on the start. Conversely, I always try to vary the time that I wait so that shooters don't catch on to a pattern and get an advantage on the start. Me, too. +1 on this. The idea, to keep it equitable, is that the competitor is responding to the start signal. Varying the time helps to encourage just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I will admit that I am somewhat predictable. I count one one thousand, two one thousand and then start applying pressure to the button. Most starts are at around 2.5 seconds, but I have unconsciously applied pressure quicker and slower so that the starts do vary from 2 to 4 seconds. I have also caught people leaning into the start as I start to press the button and gotten good at pulling my finger back off it quick only to slap it down as soon as they start to relax back into the start position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I don't prefer it but I have known some ROs to go so far as to set their timers for delay/random and a lower limit of 2sec and an upper limit of 3.5 sec (just as you might do while practicing by yourself) to ensure a fair but un-predictable delay from standby to beep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started. Ah, but has it-- by the strict letter of the rule? 8.3.4 "Start Signal"-- The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from "Are You Ready?". I bolded the most pertinent words and phrases, as therein lies the ambiguity. Is a "twitch" indicative of me beginning the CoF? I twitch when I hear rounds touching off in the next bay; I twitch when I hear them zipping around the top of the berm; I twitch when a fly lands on my nose; I twitch when I've got an itch in a "sensitive area". More logically, the drawing of the pistol, movement of the feet out of the start position (or hands, if in a non-conventional start position), or even the firing of the first shot is indisputable evidence that I've begun the CoF. In fact, I would argue that it's the first shot only, as it's used in other portions of the Rule Book as a defining moment (i.e. reshoot or scored stage in the case of a malfunction). Also note the "react" and "for any reason". It doesn't say anything about not hearing the start signal, but in fact gives the shooter full leeway to not react at all. Maybe they just didn't feel like moving-- that counts as "any reason". I won't go into the full implications of that rule, as it's written, but... there's a lot of room for the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I'd guess that the "should" means that you will not always issue the start signal...for one reason or another. It would make more sense to apply the "should" at that point, and not at the time frame, right? Would it read better with a comma, or some other tweaking? (sorry about the formatting, weird) 8.3.3 "Standby" – This command should be followed by the start signal , within 1 to 4 seconds . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I know at least part of the reason why 8.3.4 reads the way it does, is to ensure that once the competitor fires the first round, he or she owns the run..... No reshoot at that point for a fast or slow beep..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Conversely, I always try to vary the time that I wait so that shooters don't catch on to a pattern and get an advantage on the start. Me, too. Me, three. If you give a consistent start beep, the shooters will start anticipating when you'll beep and will get a .3-ish jump on the beep... Interestingly, in the Level I RO course I sat through recently, Mr. McMeanus recommended that, if you get a "StandbyBEEP" command, you turn to the RO and remind them about how long a second is... the "should" there is not to protect the RO being douchey or lazy... (he didn't say that last part, but that's was his point) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 If you dont get a beep from me within 1-4 seconds you will get a STOP followed by a restart of the commands from make ready. Something evidently went wrong, and the competitor deserves an equal shot at the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 The thing that puzzles me is that we strive, in so many ways, to run things exactly the same way from shooter to shooter, from state to state, from Area to Area. We call it equity. Yet is seems fair to start 3 guys on a squad at 4 seconds and then start the next guy in 1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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