Vlad Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Legal but I dislike it. What purpose does it serve? Sure you can say it simulates someone taking cover behind a fence post but basically you have a 0.7" of hardcover that needs to be taped and correctly patched when hit. As far as I'm concerned it is a bit of a "gotcha" kind of gimmick. Shoot a .45 and the odds of a miss get even less, because our scoring system isn't really designed to reflect fence posts. We don't have visible scoring marks on our targets presumably because the practical roots of our game say we should know here to aim but then you take that and remove the one spot people actually aim for, namely the center of the target. I'm all for screwing with a shooters comfort zone with awkward target presentation, unusual number of rounds required per target (fun fact: did you know they don't have to be the same number of shots per target for all the targets on a stage?), and so on .. but making a dead zone the width of a bullet (if you are shooting .45) seems odd. If you make the whole target covered in stripes at last you are forcing accuracy because you need those shots to be there, with one stripe down the middle most people will take the C's at speed instead of wasting the time to get A's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) I'll agree with Vlad on the re-pasting & accurate scoring issues ....... we had a HECK of a time keeping pasters on, identifying when pasters fell off during a run (did he take 4 shots or 3? Well, there's 4 holes), and making sure all parties helping paste got ALL THE HOLES pasted, including partial diameters. It wasn't fun, and we only had 3 or 4 of them on a 32 rd. stage. Therefore I would be a little perturbed if I saw an entire stage with targets like that. Black Masking tape is the easiest to use to tape / re-tape a target. Keep a roll of it handy at the base of each target stand, and you'll make your job a lot easier, and the hits will be scored a lot more accurately. But your paster/prop costs will go up dramatically that month. So again .... I would only have about 3-5 max. targets like that in 1 stage. Not multiple stages. [EDIT: Also keep in mind MANY shooters like myself, will be taking 3, 4, or even 5 shots at those targets, just for insurance reasons, so again .... your paster costs will go up.] Edited February 13, 2012 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 how does a popper score power factor ? Any hit in the calibration zone is supposed to make the target fall. Realistic ? targets stand behind trees all the time. Thats what the black stripes are simulating. Hard Cover. I think partial hardcover realistically is the norm more often than not, 4.3.1.1 Poppers are approved targets designed to recognize power and must be calibrated as specified in Appendix C. A hit below the calibration zone with a minor caliber should not drop it. I wasn't arguing against the stripes, I was making a point against A zone only stages. Fwiw I don't see anything wrong with the stripe targets, though most trees of that size are hardly hard cover...lol I see it more as a luck target rather than an accuracy target, you are just plain unlucky if you manage to put a full diameter hit on that stripe, I don't like stages based on luck, I'd rather see a really hard shot, B zone at 25m, 8" plate at 50m something like that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Actually that brings up a good story, years ago we shot a stage that had targets placed in a wooded area, one of the shooters put a 230gr .45 right through the center of a 4" diameter tree. It landed in the A zone, the arguement then started as to whether or not the tree was hard cover, the decision was that since it was a real tree and the bullet passed through it then it was not actually hard cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 how does a popper score power factor ? Any hit in the calibration zone is supposed to make the target fall. Realistic ? targets stand behind trees all the time. Thats what the black stripes are simulating. Hard Cover. I think partial hardcover realistically is the norm more often than not, You ever tried to knock one down with a .22? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger10k Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The stripe in the center of the target is obviously not illegal... and I liked it! Even though I was one of the people who put a round dead center on the stripe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 you ever tried to get scored in anything USPSA with a 22? I havent shot one with a slingshot either. Neither are allowed in USPSA. so it isnt relevant. The argument was made that stages that dont recognize power arnt legal as they violate the stage principles. BUT stages with only a popper are allowed. We no longer use calibrated poppers to judge power factor. I know 4.3.1.1 pays lip service to poppers being used to reward power, but look in C1 and tell me where that is still actually the case. All it says is the popper must fall if hit in calibration zone. No mention is made of the popper NOT falling if hit below the calibration with a minor pf round. There isnt even any major PF calibration ammo. I order for your argument to be valid, youd have to calibrate the popper with major and minor ammo. A procedure that is not IAW the rule book. From my experience poppers are calibrated to just barely stay up in the current weather conditions. The new forward falling ones are even lighter. So basically principle 2, 4.3.1.1, App C, dont add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvary45 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'd just aim dead on at the stripe, that way I would be guaranteed to miss it. DR once put a 1.5 inch steel bar dead center but about 5 yards in front of a target about 15 yards out. The only way to engage target was straight on, amazing the number of people that dead center hit that pole, but wouldnt have been able to do it on purpose if you paid them, I shot a local match that had a 3/4 piece of rebar about 10ft on front of an Azone on a target and wouldnt you know it i hit the damn rebar which was about 12yds out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Gene Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I like it. Don't let the whiners detract from you. wg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 you ever tried to get scored in anything USPSA with a 22? I havent shot one with a slingshot either. Neither are allowed in USPSA. so it isnt relevant. The argument was made that stages that dont recognize power arnt legal as they violate the stage principles. BUT stages with only a popper are allowed. We no longer use calibrated poppers to judge power factor. I know 4.3.1.1 pays lip service to poppers being used to reward power, but look in C1 and tell me where that is still actually the case. All it says is the popper must fall if hit in calibration zone. No mention is made of the popper NOT falling if hit below the calibration with a minor pf round. There isnt even any major PF calibration ammo. I order for your argument to be valid, youd have to calibrate the popper with major and minor ammo. A procedure that is not IAW the rule book. From my experience poppers are calibrated to just barely stay up in the current weather conditions. The new forward falling ones are even lighter. So basically principle 2, 4.3.1.1, App C, dont add up. That doesn't change the fact that you have eliminated the Major/Minor scoring on a stage with only A zones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I ran the all blacked out but the a-zone target at a Level-III match. Actually, the whole stage was 15 or so of those targets. Our local MD ran your stripe at our Level-I match...except he had more than one stripe. Same, same. And like the OPs target- completely legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoleroJesse Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 You have to put stripes on a target to make people slow down and aim? How about some 35yd targets or tight shots between no shoots or barrels? Long steel? If folks are wanting to have other shooters slow down and aim, maybe they should attend a different match. No one wins by not aiming. Lotsa folks win by aiming really fast. There may be restrictions on long shots due to the range, and maybe they played out all the other scenarios you mentioned... need to keep it fresh somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Whenever I do something that people grumble about I just smile and say, if you get your ass in early enough you can build the stage to your liking. I don't like it when someone comes in to shoot and hasn't helped then grumbles about this or that, Just shoot the damn stage. Funny thing is I usually come in and help setup, then don't shoot and do stats, so when I hear that crap, I'm less than sympathetic. JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I've been reading this thread since the beginning (all the way back to Sunday) and I gotta be honest ...... Every time I hear the word "Stripes" I keep expecting to see Bill Murray in his Army greens, saluting with one hand, and a spatula in the other! "You know what you're problem is baby? You've never had the Aunt Jemima Treatment." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 You have to put stripes on a target to make people slow down and aim? How about some 35yd targets or tight shots between no shoots or barrels? Long steel? If folks are wanting to have other shooters slow down and aim, maybe they should attend a different match. No one wins by not aiming. Lotsa folks win by aiming really fast. There may be restrictions on long shots due to the range, and maybe they played out all the other scenarios you mentioned... need to keep it fresh somehow. Restrictions there are... We have a bay wherein the range owner prohibits steel (fearing ricochets into the parking lot). But I wanted to mimick a stage in an upcoming major match that had steel- so I blacked out all but the A zone and advised the shooter that we would only score the best single hit on those 5 targets. I checked it out with my RMI before had. Restriction overcome. Sounds like the OPs whiners would have called it a BS target- but it was both a legal target and a legal stage which met conflicting desires. When it doesn't violate the rules, I like the mantra, "shut up and shoot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzo808 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I like it! Sucks though that you had to listen to people cry about how you made your targets. Don't let it discourage you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunt_fish Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I like the idea - make people think a little bit about how to shoot it - carefully and slowly or blaze it and maybe miss... At the end of the day everyone shooting it is in the same boat (except maybe the .45 guys!) so the competition is fair. Just my $0.02... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaosshooter00 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Love it. Rulebook legal and mind melting to boot. Heads up for my local guys, you will see this at a match soon. Only people in the "box" complain about those they fear outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feederic Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) hmmm I see that regularly down at my club. Looks good to me! Also, I am pretty sure my first three matches total in USPSA had stages like that. So as a "new shooter", I loved it! It was a good sobering challenge. Edited February 15, 2012 by feederic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 you ever tried to get scored in anything USPSA with a 22? I havent shot one with a slingshot either. Neither are allowed in USPSA. so it isnt relevant. The argument was made that stages that dont recognize power arnt legal as they violate the stage principles. BUT stages with only a popper are allowed. We no longer use calibrated poppers to judge power factor. I know 4.3.1.1 pays lip service to poppers being used to reward power, but look in C1 and tell me where that is still actually the case. All it says is the popper must fall if hit in calibration zone. No mention is made of the popper NOT falling if hit below the calibration with a minor pf round. There isnt even any major PF calibration ammo. I order for your argument to be valid, youd have to calibrate the popper with major and minor ammo. A procedure that is not IAW the rule book. From my experience poppers are calibrated to just barely stay up in the current weather conditions. The new forward falling ones are even lighter. So basically principle 2, 4.3.1.1, App C, dont add up. That doesn't change the fact that you have eliminated the Major/Minor scoring on a stage with only A zones. I agree, my point was the contradictions in the rule book. The whole game is speed power accuracy, An A zone only target takes power out of the scoring and should not be allowed any more than an all plate stage. Or a stage with only a popper. Plates, poppers, and A zone targets dont score power and should not be allowed exclusive use on a stage. However currently the rules do allow them. Maybe that needs to change. The rule book is allowing stages that violate the basic speed power accuracy triangle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 While people are all exited about a novel target presentation can someone tell me how the stripe target is any different of a challenge then painting half the target black? I mean as a shooting challenge it is an identical you basically have half a target or two halves but really same damn thing. There might even be some classifiers that way. Same challenge less chance silliness and odd taping and making an un-scorable target Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 ...can someone tell me how the stripe target is any different of a challenge then painting half the target black? Because this one has a stripe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 IDPA scenario: You are at Mitchell Brother's in San Francisco when the pole dancer takes offence to the twenty dollar Monopoly Bill you tucked into her G-String. Turns out she is armed with more than a pair of .44's!. You are forced to retreat, shooting on the move, as she continues to fire from "cover"... Hmmm, not quite G rated, but we do have an IDPA match coming up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoleroJesse Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 While people are all exited about a novel target presentation can someone tell me how the stripe target is any different of a challenge then painting half the target black? I mean as a shooting challenge it is an identical you basically have half a target or two halves but really same damn thing. There might even be some classifiers that way. Same challenge less chance silliness and odd taping and making an un-scorable target Congratulations! You pass the not freaking out test. I wonder how many people who complain about this target presentation only shoot open targets in practice... Also think of it as an option target. Shoot either the target with the left half hard cover, or the right half hard cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Whenever I do something that people grumble about I just smile and say, if you get your ass in early enough you can build the stage to your liking. I don't like it when someone comes in to shoot and hasn't helped then grumbles about this or that, Just shoot the damn stage. Funny thing is I usually come in and help setup, then don't shoot and do stats, so when I hear that crap, I'm less than sympathetic. JT Hear! Hear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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