ctay Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I have been aching for an open gun for a few months now – I finally picked one out this Friday and thought I would do a little write up on how and why I arrived at my decision. I hope this can be a useful little write up for the next guy who starts down this path… My process in selecting an open gun I only started shooting USPSA in July of 2011. I started with a box stock XDm 4.5 along with the holster and mag pouches that came with the gun (thank you Springfield!). Right away I was hooked. I loved the more competitive atmosphere that USPSA shooting had over my previous experiences shooting “action pistol”. Everyone I met was great and they were all willing to help me learn the sport. You can’t go to a USPSA event and not notice the open guns. These things look like something out of Robocop with the Red Dot sights and big compensators. They are the hot rods of the shooting world - and who doesn’t want to drive a hot rod?? I had to have one so I started the lobbying process required to get the wife on board. Once she said yes I only had to find the right gun. That should be the easy part right? Well… Picking the right gun Right away it is important to realize that any open gun is going to be both expensive and totally impractical for anything other than shooting games. This is not something that you are going to use to defend your home (at least not as a planned use) and don’t even think about concealed carry. This is a game gun and a game gun only. Additionally, an open gun is going to cost you regardless of what you buy. These are complex machines that require a significant investment to build right. That means expensive. Important note – I did basically all my research online. I diligently searched the Brian Enos forums for any reviews I could find. I scoured the websites of the specific builders. I searched wide and far on the world wide web. I evaluated everything I could find and made assumptions on what I couldn’t. Many builders have very limited websites. Some don’t have a website at all. If I couldn’t find any real information on the builders website they move significantly lower in my book. Is that fair? Well maybe not- but what else could I do? I can’t get the required information to make an informed decision then you have left yourself out of the race in my opinion. The results of my research are evaluated on what I find most important – your results may vary greatly. This is really an Apple to Oranges comparison so results will be different for everyone. The builders: Brazos Custom I first ran across Brazos Custom Gunworks (http://www.brazoscustom.com) in a Front Site ad. I liked the look of the gun, I liked the articles presented on his website and I liked that there was actual explanations on his website about why he built his guns the way he did. He explains his “popple holes”, he shows several close up pictures of the guns and explains their features. I really appreciated the information on his site. The guns seem popular – those who shoot them seem to like them. Pros: Accurate guns, high quality, high detail work. Cons: Doesn’t seem to have made many changes to his designs in a few years, cost among the highest, wait time right around a year. SVI I also first found SVI (http://sviguns.com) from an ad in Front Site. SVI guns are totally custom in every sense of the word. Virtually every part is made in house and perfectly fit for the specific gun. SVI has a proprietary steel grip that looks great, adds some static weight to the gun (can help to reduce felt recoil) and improves on one of the 2011 shortcomings – cracked grips from hard loading of full magazines. With SVI you can customize every aspect of your pistol – every aspect – including serial number! Multiple different finishes, several different grip styles and machine work that no one else offers. SVI is really a great gun! As you may expect all these great features cost – and they cost a lot! SVI is by far the most expensive of the guns I evaluated. Additionally, SVI has some proprietary parts that are not available from any other vendor. They also use a different magazine style – so in a pinch you can only borrow parts or magazines from other SVI shooters. Pros: Excellent quality, very innovative, great accuracy, top quality. Cons: cost, interchangeability with off the shelf parts, cost, long wait time, cost. Limcat Limcat guns (http://www.limcat.com) are unquestionably the most unique looking guns out there. They look like alien guns. They also are great performers! You may look at a Limcat and say “someone just went crazy with a milling machine – looks cool but doesn’t help anything”. From what I have read that is not true. Johnny Lim (Limcat builder) has said that every cut on the gun has a purpose. He designed a new comp in 2009 called the “turbo comp” that reportedly works very well. Limcat offers their guns in multiple different finishes including some wild Duracoat powder coat colors. It doesn’t get more unique than a Limcat. Pros: Quality, unique look, new Turbo Comp works well. Cons: Reported reliability issues, Duracoat not all that durable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Akai I first really heard about Akai guns (http://akaicustomguns.com) on the Brian Enos forum. A new company, they have some very ardent supporters. Akai is the official sponsor for the Rudy Team. Akai takes the best parts from all manufacturers to build his guns. For example he uses SVI barrels, Wilson safeties, Aftec Extractors, proprietary comps etc… All reports I read about his newly designed comp were very glowing. Akai build times are fast and price is comparatively very reasonable. In fact the Akai that seemed to best match the SVI I was looking at is over 30% less. Apples and oranges? Absolutely. However the Akai is no slouch in quality and performance and the lower price goes a long way towards ammo and practice. At first I didn’t really get into the look of the “ladder cuts” that many Akai guns feature however I spent a lot of time going through the Akai Gallery and found tons of really beautiful guns. Specifically the all blacked out “Katana” really changed my mind. Pros: Cost, new compensator design very good, High quality and fast build time. Cons: not as “flashy” as the SVI or Limcat, new company – not a lot of history. STI STI (http://new.stiguns.com) is really a factory gun as opposed to a custom gun. STI guns are mass produced although to a high standard. They get very good reviews and a large percentage of open shooters are shooting something that either came from STI or that started out life as a STI. You can pick them up from many different vendors and the cost is exceptional. Not tremendously unique, nor tremendously innovative. Pros: cost, basically no wait time. Cons: Lower quality parts (MIM), not “hand fitted” or custom – what you see is what you get. Others There are some very large names missing from my little list of builders. Cheely, Bedell, etc etc. Cheely Custom Gunworks (http://www.ccgunworks.com) actually ranked pretty high for me but in the end I just didn’t feel like I had enough information to make a good decision on their guns. The same goes for Bedell (http://www.velocityshooter.com) – certainly excellent guns, but there just isn’t a lot of information out there. There are lots of very competent gun smiths making guns for our sport. If I could encourage them to do one thing it would be to market yourselves online! Get your information out there so people can make informed decisions – tell the story of why your build is great. Decision Time With so many options and so many pros and cons it is difficult to make a reasoned decision. Because I am a nerdy accountant during the day (and a super nerdy accountant at night) I love spreadsheets. If I can put it into a spreadsheet I am in bliss. I got a great tool for making decisions from a website called www.idea-sandbox.com. The “Decision Making Tool” (excel spreadsheet) evaluates each decision based on qualities you find important and a 0 to 3 rating for the specific item being evaluated. The qualities are not rated in order - ie: must have a 1,2 &3 - but rather on how much you “value” each quality. I limited myself to 5 options and 5 different qualities as I felt any more would make the process very convoluted. The five aspects that mattered most to me were: Cost, innovation, uniqueness, wait time and looks. Cost: pretty self explanatory. Innovation: Do they have anything that is new and possibly better? Uniqueness: How well do they differentiate themselves from other builders? Are they offering something different? Wait time: When can I get one?? Looks: Am I going to be excited to look at the gun? Does it give you confidence in your ability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Results Edited January 30, 2012 by ctay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Results I must tell you I was surprised with the results. I really thought when I started out that I would probably end up with a Brazos or SVI. Both are great guns and I would be really excited about either one. What I found was that, when all factors are considered, Akai Custom Guns was the best value for me. Their new comp, the reasonable cost and quick turnaround time put them over the top. Each option would be evaluated differently by a different person so I do not expect that everyone else will come to the same conclusion that I did. I certainly am not saying that this is the best gun for everyone – this turned out to be the best gun for me. If your variables are different you very well may come to a different conclusion. Purchase I called up Akai Custom Guns on Friday 1-27 and placed my order. Shay was very helpful, talked though all the options that I had for the gun and helped me make any choices that were still up in the air. I purchased a “Katana” model all blacked out in 38SC. Expected delivery date of April or May. Thanks for reading – hope this was at least somewhat informational! Let me know if I left anything out. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old506 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 So where do you work as an engineer at? Just kiddin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herky Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Interesting decision process and a well written report. Did you shoot any Open guns that were available in your area? If you did, how did it play into your decision? Any input from other Open shooters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake32 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 welcome to the dark side i shoot a custom built 38sc on a tripp frame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I hope you are not that analytical when it comes time to pull the trigger. The cost difference between your two top picks comes down to the mill work on the Limcat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donnyglock Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Great report. Congrats you have made a good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Unfortunately I did not get to shoot any of the guns that I was evaluating before purchase. A couple guys in my area have SVI's and were willing to let me take them for a spin but the timing just never worked out. The one thing I am worried about is the muzzle blast of the barrel holes. The Katana is fairly "blasty" from what I've been told so I know it is going to be loud. I shoot a 300 win mag for my bolt gun so I think I am fairly used to the sound but time will tell. I plan to shoot as much as possible before I ever even bring this thing out at a match. I'm really excited about shooting open. I better really enjoy it because according to my wife I'm not going to be able to buy another "toy" this decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'll give you credit. You sure put a lot of time and effort into the absolute wrong way to make your choice. Spread sheet??? Come on. Really? As a few others said you should have shot as many as you could get your hands on. You should have talked to more Open shooters. You should have posted on the forum that you were looking to try Open. You should have.... you should have.... I moved to Open myself this past year and could not be happier with the division, my gun, or the builder. I had my gun built by one of the builders you mentioned as not having enough info on the web. Many of the top builders don't have a ton of info out there as most of the guys looking for guns already know what they are looking for. I'm sure you will be fine with your choice but I think you passed on some super builders using a flawed process. Now you can start working on your spread sheets for: Mags- Tuned or not? And by whom. Brass- New or once fired? What brand? Should I have considered 9mm? Bullets- What brand? What weight? What profile? Powder.... Holster.... I would read these forums from one end to the other to simplify the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'll give you credit. You sure put a lot of time and effort into the absolute wrong way to make your choice. Spread sheet??? Come on. Really? As a few others said you should have shot as many as you could get your hands on. You should have talked to more Open shooters. You should have posted on the forum that you were looking to try Open. You should have.... you should have.... Ideally I would have loved to shoot everything out there first and then make a decision but the reality is that was not really possible. I did speak to the open shooters in my area as well as read as much as I could here on the forums. The point of the spreadsheet was to distill all the information into something usable and then make a rational decision. I'll be happy to share with you my mag, brass and bullet spreadsheets when they are done. As I always say - your not having a good time if your not doing it in excel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'm with Old506...you gotta be an engineer. Whether you used the right criteria or not for your KT analysis is academic, I think you made a sound choice. By all accounts Akai is making a good gun, with good components, for a good price. The onus is now on you to learn it and shoot it. That gun in the right hands is capable of winning any match you go to. So, congratulations on jumping into the open division pool with both feet, now hang on and enjoy the ride! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Bassman Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Don't ever confuse accountants with engineers. I tell folks my wife is the only thing an engineer is truly afraid of. So far 3 out of 5 engineers have guessed correctly. She's an accountant. If he was an engineer, the analysis would have included weighting for tolerances, surface finish, coatings, and materials choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Don't ever confuse accountants with engineers. I tell folks my wife is the only thing an engineer is truly afraid of. So far 3 out of 5 engineers have guessed correctly. She's an accountant. No one ever likes the money guy... Once several years ago I was doing an audit on a construction company. Their HR guy was a pretty big dude that could roll me any day of the week and twice on Sunday. He actually started shaking when I started the audit... didn't do anything wrong, just worried about someone checking his work. Any other situation in the world and he wouldn't be worried about me, but give me a clip board... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Chris: I think you will be pleased with your choice I have a Open 9mm that you could try this weekend if you want. Maybe do the classifier with it so you get ahead of the curve to get classified. Let me know if you want to try it. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Good luck! I look forward to your after purchase report. Go ahead and order your SV mags now, and get them to Shay so he can make sure they work perfectly with whatever grip you chose. Which trigger insert did you pick? there are 3 legnths and mulitple slants, straights and curves that go with the SV grip. There are also 3 grip possiblities with a SV? How big are your hands? These questions make a difference in your build, nothing worse than a custom gun that don't fit. So much more goes into making the right custom gun. I've had 5 different open guns , took that many different guns to get to the one I had built by SV. Now, I have my dream gun. Shay is great, he will take great care of you. Ask lots of questions and start shooting different guns now, so if there are changes you want, you can get them in. Popple holes are a real personal choice, none to 4, take your pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robot Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Great way of putting some thought about choosing essentially the same product. It reminds me a lot like wine. Being your first gun, your choice of going with the Price Quality Ratio and low wait times is the best. Get your money's worth, shoot the heck out of it, and when you've built up the experience, you'll know exactly what your dream gun will be, and know who to build it for you. My only concern is the choice of 38 super comp. I would suggest going for 9mm major to save you some effort to have to pickup our own brass, which is a huge pain for almost everyone I meet shooting Open in the NW, me included. Edited January 31, 2012 by robot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EduardoM Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Don't ever confuse accountants with engineers. I tell folks my wife is the only thing an engineer is truly afraid of. So far 3 out of 5 engineers have guessed correctly. She's an accountant. If he was an engineer, the analysis would have included weighting for tolerances, surface finish, coatings, and materials choices. + 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurritoBandito Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I hope you're following GDP for this decision making process. Remember, if the document is not in SAP it doesn't exist. Now you need a Pugh matrix to decide which caliber you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I called up Akai on Friday 1-27 and placed my order. Expected delivery date of April or May. Chris [/font] Chris, as you mentioned, this is all Very Personal - as an example - uniqueness didn't mean anything to me - I went thru this same process 4 years ago. For me, it came down to three things: 1. I wanted the gun NOW - 2. Cheap 3. I realized that since I had never fired an open gun before that in a year or two I'd buy a custom gun, once I had some experience with the guns. So, I bought a TruBor for $2600, and received it in two weeks. Four years later, I'm still shooting my two (I bought another one) TruBors, with a slide racker and grip tape. You must be very patient to wait five months ... Good luck with your purchase - I'd love to hear back from you in 6-7 months. Enjoy your blaster - sounds great. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'll give you credit. You sure put a lot of time and effort into the absolute wrong way to make your choice. Spread sheet??? Come on. Really? As a few others said you should have shot as many as you could get your hands on. You should have talked to more Open shooters. You should have posted on the forum that you were looking to try Open. You should have.... you should have.... I moved to Open myself this past year and could not be happier with the division, my gun, or the builder. I had my gun built by one of the builders you mentioned as not having enough info on the web. Many of the top builders don't have a ton of info out there as most of the guys looking for guns already know what they are looking for. I'm sure you will be fine with your choice but I think you passed on some super builders using a flawed process. Now you can start working on your spread sheets for: Mags- Tuned or not? And by whom. Brass- New or once fired? What brand? Should I have considered 9mm? Bullets- What brand? What weight? What profile? Powder.... Holster.... I would read these forums from one end to the other to simplify the process. You are kidding right, Uniqueness, how about Flat and Soft, maybe even accurate. Don't matter if you are just going to look at it. Give me a ugly gun that runs. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 You are kidding right, Uniqueness, how about Flat and Soft, maybe even accurate. Don't matter if you are just going to look at it. Give me a ugly gun that runs. YMMV All of those builders are making a flat/soft guns when you use the correct load, they are all going to be accurate and they will all run. So what does that leave you with... exactly the criteria he judged them on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Mine looks like I used it for a hammer in the rain. Damn thing never misses a beat. People ask why I don't have it refinished, or look at it with a slight look of discust, I just smile when their 5k gun hiccups and my beater runs like a Swiss watch. Ever look at some of the cobbled guns the big dogs use? They won't win any awards for beauty, I can tell you that, but they all have one thing in common, they run smooth. Well most of them.... Poor Todd, wonder how many he lost because of malfs? I asked him after he left Para... he said to many to think about and shook his head with a combo of sadness and mild disgust. This is in no way a slam on any builder, just thought rational behind what I feel is the most important consideration... Does it run? Any of the builders or manufacturers build a gun that is more than enough accurate for our sport. My gun has about 4k on it right now and hasn't been cleaned. It still runs like a top, but I know I have to clean it because I can feel the slide slowing down and when you rack it... it feel like it has mud for lube. lol. In point of fact, both my ugly primary and my not so ugly back-up will be traveling to Florida for the Open and both will be used in that match. Well, at least my guns will make it if not me. JT Edited January 31, 2012 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 There is a lot to be said about how the gun looks and pride of ownership, especially when you are starting out in Open and just dropped big $. Reliability will always be #1 though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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