Division 'modification' discussion

[lcs]

If we had Prod-10 and Production, no state is left behind or excluded. No equipment race. No gun left behind. It's pretty simple!

Times change, USPSA needs to evolve.

The 10 round mag restriction was based on a Federal ban which is no longer in existence and has not been for some time.

[bbbean]

If we had Prod-10 and Production, no state is left behind or excluded. No equipment race. No gun left behind. It's pretty simple!

Having "Production" is even simpler, has worked great for years, and has offers no problems. Part of the challenge of production (and Lim 10, for that matter) is the competitive challenge of breaking a 10+ round stage into <10 round strings.

Crux of the matter is that Production and Limited 10 both work fine as is, each has thousands of regular participants, each has strong participation from the newbie D level to the GM level.

I get that it's fun to load a gun up with 15, 17, 19, or 30 rounds and run a stage without a reload. That's why I sometimes shoot Limited. I'm glad there are two divisions for higher cap guns, and I'm sure there's a reason Lim and Open are so popular. But there's no reason to mess with success and try to turn Production into some sort of "Limited-lite" just so guys with a 9 can hose a stage. That's messing with success.

BB

[Corey]

6 divisions is enough in my opinion. Want to talk about confusing new shooters? Lets split 2 or 3 current divisions into 2 or 3 each. I personally dont want to see Production changed to 15. I like it at 10. Yes, i dont shoot production much, but i like the concept. Want to load up the mags and blast, step into Limited. Want to learn how to break down stages and win a stage based on your plan and how well you reload? Then shoot production.

Everyone seems to think that going UP to 15 rounds is what we need to be more like IPSC. A) who cares if we are more like IPSC. . they came DOWN to 15 from an unlimited capacity. IF we truly want to be like them, we need to limit rounds, not allow more.

[PistoleroJesse]

The fact of the matter is no organization should require its membership to break the law to be competitive.

Different states have different hunting laws... not the quite the same just saying

I think with careful crafting of new classifiers to make it so mag capacity over 10 is no advantage (mandatory mag changes are the norm for most classifiers I've shot anyways) and some pruning of old ones, we could probably get rid of Limited 10 and cap Production at 15 rounds.

If you normally travel from a tyrannical common-wealth to a free-state, make buddies or keep some tuned mags in a safe deposit box just over state lines. Serious competitors will find a way to make it work, people who only shoot local will still be relevant nationally with classifiers.

And what about major matches? Should we buy mags and have them shipped to the hotel so we can use them there?

Wouldn't be illegal. I think Vendors at major matches would also step up in this regard too.

[Flexmoney]

I might could see eliminating the 6 round limit in revo for minor PF guns, that may give the ICORE limited guys a place to play without obsoleting all the 625's people have been shooting for years.

Now that is an interesting idea.

There is a thread on it in the Revolver section. Worth a look. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=134693

[lcs]

6 divisions is enough in my opinion. Want to talk about confusing new shooters? Lets split 2 or 3 current divisions into 2 or 3 each. I personally dont want to see Production changed to 15. I like it at 10. Yes, i dont shoot production much, but i like the concept. Want to load up the mags and blast, step into Limited. Want to learn how to break down stages and win a stage based on your plan and how well you reload? Then shoot production.

Everyone seems to think that going UP to 15 rounds is what we need to be more like IPSC. A) who cares if we are more like IPSC. . they came DOWN to 15 from an unlimited capacity. IF we truly want to be like them, we need to limit rounds, not allow more.

Has nothing to do with IPSC. Since you brought IPSC up, at least as an organization IPSC is willing to experiment an see what happens.

How would having Production and Prod 10 confuse new shooters? We are talking same rules, just different round restrictions. If they are confused, they should stay at home.

[bbbean]

How would having Production and Prod 10 confuse new shooters? We are talking same rules, just different round restrictions. If they are confused, they should stay at home.

How would it benefit new shooters? I'm sure you could come up with all sorts of new ways to split existing divisions, but what would the benefits be?

The wheel's been invented. It ain't broke. Production works great just like it is. Limited works great just like it is. Unless there's a major benefit to splitting up established divisions, why mess with success?

Each division we currently have offered some benefit to shooters or the organization at the time it was created. I'm not opposed to new divisions per se, but they need to have some rationale beyond "my gun will hold more and I don't want to reload as often".

BB

[Chuck D]

The fact of the matter is no organization should require its membership to break the law to be competitive.

Different states have different hunting laws... not the quite the same just saying

I think with careful crafting of new classifiers to make it so mag capacity over 10 is no advantage (mandatory mag changes are the norm for most classifiers I've shot anyways) and some pruning of old ones, we could probably get rid of Limited 10 and cap Production at 15 rounds.

If you normally travel from a tyrannical common-wealth to a free-state, make buddies or keep some tuned mags in a safe deposit box just over state lines. Serious competitors will find a way to make it work, people who only shoot local will still be relevant nationally with classifiers.

And what about major matches? Should we buy mags and have them shipped to the hotel so we can use them there?

Wouldn't be illegal. I think Vendors at major matches would also step up in this regard too.

...astounding.

So, I should purchase magazines, keep 'em in a safe deposit box and when I go to a major match drive 3-4 hours to the Pennsylvania border and pick them up, never mind if I have to travel in the wrong direction to pick 'em up, so you can have 5 extra rounds in a Production Division magazine.

Really ?

[Chuck D]

How would having Production and Prod 10 confuse new shooters? We are talking same rules, just different round restrictions. If they are confused, they should stay at home.

How would it benefit new shooters? I'm sure you could come up with all sorts of new ways to split existing divisions, but what would the benefits be?

The wheel's been invented. It ain't broke. Production works great just like it is. Limited works great just like it is. Unless there's a major benefit to splitting up established divisions, why mess with success?

Each division we currently have offered some benefit to shooters or the organization at the time it was created. I'm not opposed to new divisions per se, but they need to have some rationale beyond "my gun will hold more and I don't want to reload as often".

BB

Most well thought out and logical response I've read thus far. Thank you VERY much.

[Chuck D]

If we had Prod-10 and Production, no state is left behind or excluded. No equipment race. No gun left behind. It's pretty simple!

Times change, USPSA needs to evolve.

The 10 round mag restriction was based on a Federal ban which is no longer in existence and has not been for some time.

...for some of us it IS still in effect and will remain so.

[Flexmoney]

Most well thought out and logical response I've read thus far. Thank you VERY much.

How about this one?!?!

I want a hamburger...no, a cheeseburger.

I want a hot dog.

I want a milk shake.

I want potato chips.

[lcs]

If we had Prod-10 and Production, no state is left behind or excluded. No equipment race. No gun left behind. It's pretty simple!

Times change, USPSA needs to evolve.

The 10 round mag restriction was based on a Federal ban which is no longer in existence and has not been for some time.

...for some of us it IS still in effect and will remain so.

We understand. That is why I said "Production" "Prod-10" We have a LIM-10 for exactly the same reason.

[lcs]

How would having Production and Prod 10 confuse new shooters? We are talking same rules, just different round restrictions. If they are confused, they should stay at home.

How would it benefit new shooters? I'm sure you could come up with all sorts of new ways to split existing divisions, but what would the benefits be?

The wheel's been invented. It ain't broke. Production works great just like it is. Limited works great just like it is. Unless there's a major benefit to splitting up established divisions, why mess with success?

Each division we currently have offered some benefit to shooters or the organization at the time it was created. I'm not opposed to new divisions per se, but they need to have some rationale beyond "my gun will hold more and I don't want to reload as often".

BB

How would it NOT benefit new shooters?

We get better wheels every day. Yes the tires are still round, but we have a lot of different sizes.

Most of the guns produced today and used in Production come with magazines with greater than 10 rounds. It is not about "my gun will hold more and I don't want to reload as often", or may be it is. There is a lot of members who would like to shoot production with greater than 10 rounds per mag.

Everyone should drive VWs too!

[Jim Norman]

Just for the record, I have not advocated that we split any division, my idea was to add two where we currently are blocking people with limited (small 'L') equipment from entering into USPSA competitions.

Open Revo allows MORE shooters to shoot what they already have and use in a different sport without having to handicap themselves artificially.

Open 10 does the same thing.

Eliminating L10, opening up Production to 15 rounds both reduce the number of competitive guns. Remember not everyone belongs to the gun of the month club. There are a lot of people that have 'A GUN', they shoot it. Not all guns that are single stacks are acceptable in SS. Not all DA/Striker guns hold 15 rounds. Why do so many people want to push these people out of USPSA?

Splitting Production into P10 and P15 or Limited in Lim Major and Lim Minor makes no sense, both these add no one to the mix and dilute the pool. Adding two divisions where there is or may be a pool of shooters with currently non-USPSA friendly guns adds to the potential membership.

My opinion,

Jim

[Supermoto]

...astounding.

So, I should purchase magazines, keep 'em in a safe deposit box and when I go to a major match drive 3-4 hours to the Pennsylvania border and pick them up, never mind if I have to travel in the wrong direction to pick 'em up, so you can have 5 extra rounds in a Production Division magazine.

Really ?

So the 90% of the country needs to restrict their capacity so you can shoot the division the way you want? I now live in NJ, I can't shoot open or Limited with same mags as I did before. So I changed divisions to SS. I made the change, I didn't ask people to accommodate me.

[bbbean]

It is not about "my gun will hold more and I don't want to reload as often", or may be it is.

I haven't seen any other justification.

But if this is important to you, run for SC or AD and address it at that level. We've wrestled this issue several times on the forum, and the end result always seems to be a handful of determined folks who want Prod-15 or Limited Lite, and a much larger consensus of shooters who are pretty happy with division limits as they are.

BB

[Chuck D]

...astounding.

So, I should purchase magazines, keep 'em in a safe deposit box and when I go to a major match drive 3-4 hours to the Pennsylvania border and pick them up, never mind if I have to travel in the wrong direction to pick 'em up, so you can have 5 extra rounds in a Production Division magazine.

Really ?

So the 90% of the country needs to restrict their capacity so you can shoot the division the way you want? I now live in NJ, I can't shoot open or Limited with same mags as I did before. So I changed divisions to SS. I made the change, I didn't ask people to accommodate me.

That's not what I'm advocating. What's being advocated is to change already existing divisions and/or eliminate them altogether. Production has been since day 1 a 10 round division and L10 is as well.

I (and others) are being asked to change to accomodate NOT the other way around.

[Chuck D]

It is not about "my gun will hold more and I don't want to reload as often", or may be it is.

I haven't seen any other justification.

But if this is important to you, run for SC or AD and address it at that level. We've wrestled this issue several times on the forum, and the end result always seems to be a handful of determined folks who want Prod-15 or Limited Lite, and a much larger consensus of shooters who are pretty happy with division limits as they are.

BB

Very few minds will be changed here. Shooters will eventually "vote" with their wallets. I've said all I have to say. Best of luck to those who hang in there and swing for the fence.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Chuck D

[badchad]

I (and others) are being asked to change to accomodate NOT the other way around.

But didn't you say you haven't shot a USPSA match since 2004?

[lcs]

It is not about "my gun will hold more and I don't want to reload as often", or may be it is.

I haven't seen any other justification.

But if this is important to you, run for SC or AD and address it at that level. We've wrestled this issue several times on the forum, and the end result always seems to be a handful of determined folks who want Prod-15 or Limited Lite, and a much larger consensus of shooters who are pretty happy with division limits as they are.

BB

Are you sure your view is the "consensus".

[bbbean]

It is not about "my gun will hold more and I don't want to reload as often", or may be it is.

I haven't seen any other justification.

But if this is important to you, run for SC or AD and address it at that level. We've wrestled this issue several times on the forum, and the end result always seems to be a handful of determined folks who want Prod-15 or Limited Lite, and a much larger consensus of shooters who are pretty happy with division limits as they are.

BB

Are you sure your view is the "consensus".

I'm pretty sure the consensus view is the consensus. Read the old threads. Note that this hasn't been changed by USPSA. Draw your own conclusion.

BB

[lugnut]

<br>I'm curious... for those who say that adding more division "dilutes" the competition, are you saying that because:<br><br>1. If matches give out cash awards, the awards are based on the number of competitors in the division. Less people in a particular division means less people to take money from?<br><br>2. Sanction USPSA matches require a minimum of 5 people competing in that division for official recognition (Rule 6.2.2 and Appendix A2)? If people who currently compete in your division leave for another division, you won't have enough to have your division recognized? Consider that the other division will probably not have enough, either.<br><br>3. It's harder to tell how an individual places overall when there are more divisions to compare against? Remember that USPSA competitions are between people in the same division. (Principle 3, and Rule 9.2.5) Consider, that people can always request for the unofficial overall results if it's important to see relative standings.<br>

<br><br>I was one of the folks that said that.   You mention all valid points... but I was simply implying that IMO I think all shooters that are interested in USPSA are shooting in one of the current divisions.  For example- if we create Open Revo, I'd imagine that "most" people that would shoot that division would come from the current revo division anyway.  Open 10 would come from Open, etc.  New divisions wouldn't draw new shooters.  Just my thoughts. Edited December 6, 2011 by lugnut

[MarkCO]

That's not what I'm advocating. What's being advocated is to change already existing divisions and/or eliminate them altogether. Production has been since day 1 a 10 round division and L10 is as well.

I (and others) are being asked to change to accomodate NOT the other way around.

Does anyone have access to the actual historical documents that explain why Limited 10 was created and why Production was limited to 10 rounds? I think I remember some Federal law that had us all in a tizzy and the reaction was to create divisions that were in line with that NATIONAL law, which is no more. Thus without the reasons for their creation, does it still make sense to keep them? More divisions mean more rules, more juggling of various issues at major matches and 4 less populated divisions competing for the shooters who don't want to shoot Open and Limited. NONE of those 4 divisions allow more than 10 rounds regardless of capacity. I certainly don't want more than 6 divisions, but I still think there is some good logic to streamlining those divisions, in some manner. Open 10, to me, makes sense in some respects, but if it is added, I think another division has to be removed. Production moving to 15 rounds makes sense, and looking through the classifiers, I don't think it matters much except on maybe 3 or 4 of them.

I started in Limited when there were just 2 divisions, and there are some aspects that were good. When I look at some other action sports with like 25 divisions or some such thing, I can see the detriments.

All well and good for discussions sake, but what is the big picture? What is the end goal of tinkering with the divisions? Are we trying to bring in new members? Are we trying to provide a better product for current members? Are we trying to cater to the vocal 10%? These are all questions that I think should be addressed. If I send my Area Director a recomendation for a change, I feel compelled to spell out a logical reason for such change (unless I have already spoken to him/her and they know the rationale).

If the Division tinkering it aimed at bringing in new members, that argument must be compared and contrasted against other competing methods. If it is aimed at the current membership, then the membership should be allowed to voice any and all opinions with the majority opinions getting implemented.

In the FWIW realm, we have some new ADs, a new President and some rules review occurring. Having spoken with more than just my own AD, I know they are struggling with several issues and so I plan to let them know my general views and let them lead for a bit and see where we end up. Personally, I have not been so excited for a new year of shooting in a long time.

Now, go load some ammo!

[lcs]

It is not about "my gun will hold more and I don't want to reload as often", or may be it is.

I haven't seen any other justification.

But if this is important to you, run for SC or AD and address it at that level. We've wrestled this issue several times on the forum, and the end result always seems to be a handful of determined folks who want Prod-15 or Limited Lite, and a much larger consensus of shooters who are pretty happy with division limits as they are.

BB

Are you sure your view is the "consensus".

I'm pretty sure the consensus view is the consensus. Read the old threads. Note that this hasn't been changed by USPSA. Draw your own conclusion.

BB

In the past it has always been to CHANGE production. I guess your missing my whole idea. No big deal.

[glefos]

It is not about "my gun will hold more and I don't want to reload as often", or may be it is.

I haven't seen any other justification.

But if this is important to you, run for SC or AD and address it at that level. We've wrestled this issue several times on the forum, and the end result always seems to be a handful of determined folks who want Prod-15 or Limited Lite, and a much larger consensus of shooters who are pretty happy with division limits as they are.

BB

Are you sure your view is the "consensus".

I'm pretty sure the consensus view is the consensus. Read the old threads. Note that this hasn't been changed by USPSA. Draw your own conclusion.

BB

Offer Production and Production-10 at the level 2 matches next year. Then you'll have your consensus.

Until then you just have a bunch of excuses and internet speculation.