Division 'modification' discussion

[ChuckS]

The issue with that is steel targets. .22's won't knock them down. To score them you'd need to do it audibly. You also have the problem that falling steel is often used to either reveal an additional steel target behind it, or act as an activator for a moving target.

Let us not forget our beloved Texas star... Hell, the plates won't fall when we hit them with a .45 sometimes

[West Texas Granny]

The issue with that is steel targets. .22's won't knock them down. To score them you'd need to do it audibly. You also have the problem that falling steel is often used to either reveal an additional steel target behind it, or act as an activator for a moving target.

Let us not forget our beloved Texas star... Hell, the plates won't fall when we hit them with a .45 sometimes

The items pointed out in support of not adding a 22 rim fire division are not insurmountable. In fact it's really an excuse to not consider a 22 rim fire.

[JakeMartens]

Here's my idea for a new division that would potentially attract new shooters: .22 rimfire.

Good for the youngsters, and it might attract some women who are intimidated by a heavier recoiling gun.

Best idea in this whole thread.

It is a bad idea to include it in with the standard division in a match.

Separate side match or stand alone would be fine, but isn't that what steel challenge is used for, getting new shooters out to try and then open doors for them to uspsa

[Chuck Anderson]

The issue with that is steel targets. .22's won't knock them down. To score them you'd need to do it audibly. You also have the problem that falling steel is often used to either reveal an additional steel target behind it, or act as an activator for a moving target.

Let us not forget our beloved Texas star... Hell, the plates won't fall when we hit them with a .45 sometimes

The items pointed out in support of not adding a 22 rim fire division are not insurmountable. In fact it's really an excuse to not consider a 22 rim fire.

Because it goes against one of the founding principles of the sport. Power. Having .22 and Action Air in USPSA/IPSC would likely cause the founders to kick us out of the sport. That said, USPSA is working towards being the Umbrella under which all the action shooting sports are run under. USPSA, no. Steel Challenge, absolutely. If someone wants to start an org to run .22 rimfire and Action Air events, fine, but it's not USPSA as we know it. It would have to be another sport.

[Unregistered]

IPSC has different disciplines - action air and the new proposed .22 rimfire will be just that.

I don't think anyone could justify running .22 rimfire as a "division" alongside production, limited etc. It would have to be a separate entity.

[LPatterson]

Literally every sport has a category for women. Literally every sport recognizes women's champions the same way they recognize the men. Are you suggesting that USPSA should be any different?

What is the NFL's cagetory for women? Lingerie Footbal League?

I can't think of very many sports where men and women compete at the same time, on the same playing field (for lack of a better term.)

The NFL isn't a sport it is a business with a union. A few girls/women have tried playing in boys sports where there were not enough girls for a team and it took a court order to let them compete. The Army doesn't allow women in combat either but that isn't stopping them from getting killed. What does any of this have to do with division limits?

[LPatterson]

With all the other ideas out there, how about eliminating the box. That way I could download my G24 and use my 15 round mags. Afterall size is better isn't it.

[thebigdogg316]

why don't we leave things alone?

[JakeMartens]

why don't we leave things alone?

Because there are 6 people on here that just have to have something to post about......and no one has posted a good rules question in a week.

[warpspeed]

I do not think L10 should go away. It is popular here in CA. Way more popular than revo.

Let's see.. how many USPSA shooters are in ban states? CA, MA, NY, NJ, etc. I bet a bunch. I guess we could all just switch to SS or Revo.

Not sure about the other states but California doesn't seem to have much problem fielding top shooters in Open and Limited as is.

IIRC, CA also grandfathered a bunch of mags.....

NJ for one did not.....

That only works for competitions in state. What happens when the CA resident decides to shoot his Area match in AZ or Nats in Vegas?

I live in CA. I have lived here for 44 years. I have been shooting SC / USPSA since late 1999 and thanks to a bit of luck and some guidance, I was able to buy hi-caps when it was legal to do so for guns I knew I'd be getting. I'm sure there are others like me but I bet I can count them on one hand.

I have seen new shooters come to matches with a Glock or whatever. Shoot a match or two and then show up with a STI Open gun. Big stick and all. I have seen it more than once. I can give you names if you like.

The laws in this state do not deter anyone from competing in any division. period.

For those that do not know, possession of magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds is not illegal.

Change the divisions if you like but do not use CA as an excuse to do so. It will not make any difference at all.

[aztecdriver]

Unfortunately, I would rather the bod members look toward recommending membership observe the state laws rather than create a competitive platform that requires they break it. CA was used as an example, but is by no means the exhaustive list of states with this issue.

[leadslinger275]

Why would you say this? I see no reason that L10 should go away, or any other division for that matter. Actually we could use two more divisions if we really want to capture more shooters; Open-10 and Open Revo.

Open 10? Open Revo?

Question: Who wants to shoot Open 10?

Answer: Nobody.

Question: Who wants to shoot Open?

Answer: Hosers!

Question: Who wants to Hose with a $3,000 race gun and 10+1?

Answer: No one.

Question: How many revo shooters shot your last local match? One, two, or none?

This is silly, leave the divisions how they are.

[Chills1994]

why don't we leave things alone?

Because there are 6 people on here that just have to have something to post about......and no one has posted a good rules question in a week.

That Skydiver guy must be slacking off then.

[gino_aki]

I shoot at the same club as HI5-0 and readily understand his reasons for being against adding divisions (I was kinda partial to adding Open-10 and Open Revo, but after reading through 15 pages of posts I'm not so sure anymore.) Background to my point is that he is arguably the best shooter in the club (waits for ray 38super to chime in) and will not miss a beat switching from his ten rounders to hi-caps at a big match.

For the rest of us mere mortals we'd shoot a big match the way we would any home match except that at the big match a stage might sound like this: beep! click, bang-bang, bang-bang, bang-bang, bang-bang, bang-bang...AWW Crap!!! as the mag with ten more rounds in it hit the ground.

One of our better shooters, who's also in the same department as HI5-0, chose to shoot L-10 at a couple of major matches with this as a prime consideration. This particular stage scenario at a big match is a standing joke at our club.

My point being that shooters traveling from ban states to Free America to shoot matches will very likely shoot the same way they do at home. Eliminating/modifying the capacity-limited divisions that they can and do compete in legally will definitely put them at a disadvantage against shooters who regularly compete under the lack of same said restrictions. Just having access to hi caps (in another state!?) does not mean you practice with them, are used to the different weight and weight distribution, or have had any time to wring them out and tune them.

I'd shoot Open-10. I do now occasionally, mostly because my better Open gun uses a different caliber than my L-10, and I'm fairly lazy about doing things like changing the press set-up. I have to do more reloads but umm isn't that what that gaping magwell is all about?

I also think it's kind of ridiculous putting Bob N. up against Barry and Ray just because his 627 holds 8 rounds.

If eight divisions is too much for EzWinScore to handle then I'm for leaving well enough alone. If reading off or printing up the results from two more divisions is NOT too taxing for the stats guys or the printer...add Open-10 and Open Revolver.

[Skydiver]

why don't we leave things alone?

Because there are 6 people on here that just have to have something to post about......and no one has posted a good rules question in a week.

That Skydiver guy must be slacking off then.

Sorry to disappoint, guys and gals. I've been very sick the past two weeks.

[g.willikers]

Without a corresponding increase in participants, more equipment divisions just dilutes the competition.

Whatever happened to the idea of the stage designs determining the "level playing field", instead of adding yet more divisions?

[Skydiver]

Without a corresponding increase in participants, more equipment divisions just dilutes the competition.

Whatever happened to the idea of the stage designs determining the "level playing field", instead of adding yet more divisions?

I always took it to be that the stage design made it a level playing field for everybody within the same division. Some CoF's may favor larger capacity divisions than others. Yes, a course may have only 8 shots per view/location, but if a course designer sets up those views/locations to be within 3 steps of each other, people who don't have to reload as often will be at advantage.

[Gatekeeper]

I'm pretty happy with the current divisions and I agree with many who have stated previously that adding more divisions does nothing but water down the competition. One suggestion I haven't seen mentioned here(although I may have missed it) is why not allow Major/Minor scoring in production division?

Same production rules but run it like single stack with 10rd minor/8rd Major capacity?

Many more stock guns new shooters already have would now be competitive out of the box. The Newb that shows up with his 45 Auto Glock 21 can shoot the same division as his bud that has a Glock 17 in 9mm, as opposed to being told to shoot with the "big boy guns" in Limited or Limited-10. Wouldn't these "Major" caliber Production guns have a better home with their Minor brothers??

The more experienced competitors can make the same decision as the Single Stack guys have to do, is the limited capacity worth the higher scoring for marginal hits, or is higher capacity, less recoil, and cheaper ammo worth the minor scoring??

[Skydiver]

The Glock 21 is perfectly legal in Production with the current 10 round limit. The shooter doesn't have to shoot in Limited or Limited-10 with it.

[atbarr]

The Glock 21 is perfectly legal in Production with the current 10 round limit. The shooter doesn't have to shoot in Limited or Limited-10 with it.

If he reloads, he can load it down to minor PF. That's what I do with my .40 Pro, when shooting Production. Very soft shooting.

[Gatekeeper]

The Glock 21 is perfectly legal in Production with the current 10 round limit. The shooter doesn't have to shoot in Limited or Limited-10 with it.

Yeah? no kidding

My point was shooting Major in Production(where the example G21 fits more-so than in Lim/L-10) is nothing but a disadvantage to the shooter.

I thought DVC was supposed to represent a balance of speed, power, and accuracy. Why is production the only Division that doesn't recognize shooters using the higher power factor?

Unless it really is a "beginners" division....

[Nik Habicht]

The Glock 21 is perfectly legal in Production with the current 10 round limit. The shooter doesn't have to shoot in Limited or Limited-10 with it.

Yeah? no kidding

My point was shooting Major in Production(where the example G21 fits more-so than in Lim/L-10) is nothing but a disadvantage to the shooter.

I thought DVC was supposed to represent a balance of speed, power, and accuracy. Why is production the only Division that doesn't recognize shooters using the higher power factor?

Unless it really is a "beginners" division....

I suspect that the cost of factory 9mm was a factor in making the division minor only....

The things that I have always thought make it unique:

• Minor scoring
  
• 10 rounds to a mag
  
• No single action guns
  
• No optics, comps, or ports
  
• Restriction on external modifications -- so the guns still look stock, reflect the appearance of the manufacturer's product line
  
• Holster and pouch positioning.
  

I would really hate to see that core list amended....

[Singlestack]

The Glock 21 is perfectly legal in Production with the current 10 round limit. The shooter doesn't have to shoot in Limited or Limited-10 with it.

Yeah? no kidding

My point was shooting Major in Production(where the example G21 fits more-so than in Lim/L-10) is nothing but a disadvantage to the shooter.

I thought DVC was supposed to represent a balance of speed, power, and accuracy. Why is production the only Division that doesn't recognize shooters using the higher power factor?

Unless it really is a "beginners" division....

As soon as you add Major to Production, every 9mm becomes obsolete. You sure that's what you want?

[lcs]

The Glock 21 is perfectly legal in Production with the current 10 round limit. The shooter doesn't have to shoot in Limited or Limited-10 with it.

Yeah? no kidding

My point was shooting Major in Production(where the example G21 fits more-so than in Lim/L-10) is nothing but a disadvantage to the shooter.

I thought DVC was supposed to represent a balance of speed, power, and accuracy. Why is production the only Division that doesn't recognize shooters using the higher power factor?

Unless it really is a "beginners" division....

I suspect that the cost of factory 9mm was a factor in making the division minor only....

The things that I have always thought make it unique:

• Minor scoring
• 10 rounds to a mag
• No single action guns
• No optics, comps, or ports
• Restriction on external modifications -- so the guns still look stock, reflect the appearance of the manufacturer's product line
• Holster and pouch positioning.

I would really hate to see that core list amended....

Really ?

[mikegot38]

I do wonder, if we had a "for shits and giggles" Open 10 match, how many folks would come shoot it, or how many more people would shoot Open.

I can easily see alot more Open guns based on production guns such as M&P's, glocks, etc.

Alot easier to play if you don't have to spend $100 on a magazine.

When I do come to NJ to shoot open (which is not often due to my schedule) it is with my 10 round Canadian magazines. I also shoot open 10 here in PA to work on stage breakdown for matches in Canada