shotgun reliability

[mpeltier]

When it comes to equipment reliability it seems to me we ask a lot of our semi auto shotguns and have to contend with ammo that is made primarily out of cheap plastic.....then we expect them to perform as reliably as a fine tuned custom pistol or rifle. Them we sit back and go.....what's wrong with my shotgun, it malfunctioned one time on me at this match.........we've read the posts over and over again. So, what is the expectation that is realistic out of todays autoloaders with todays ammo? I have owned many and none have ever been nearly as realiable as the pistol or rifle. I give my Benelli the utmost care and expect it to once in a while caugh up a round. Usually I atribute it to me or the ammo as the most falable of the three. My observations are to expect one malfunction per about every 200 rds. Do you all think that's about right, or do I need a new shotgun......

[Alaskapopo]

My M2 has had about 600 rounds through it so far maybe a bit more with no malfunctions.

Pat

[Merlin Orr]

Mine has not fired 3 times (that I remember) since I had it..~3 years on the current one. Maybe 4000 rounds... Once with a hugely swollen base on a shell, once when i had the gun in a port and the bolt racker caught on the prop and once when I bounced an empty back into the gun off of a port.

Fiocchi slugs - Remnington controlled flight buck and either Rem Heavy Dove Loads or Winchester Trap Loads is about all I shoot in it. I did "help" Benny shoot up a crap load of mixed stuff that had collected in his back room for years and never had a bobble.

I have oiled mine about every 200 or 300 rounds. I do clean the tube every few matches and have taken the bolt out a few times and cleaned the bolt lug locking area but never once ran anything down the barrel.

Of course - I am old and my friends say - senile so I may have forgotten something....

[MarkCO]

Mark I think you are about right. Working matches, I am always amazed at how many SG malfunctions I see, from some of the top shooters too, followed by "Hmm, never happened to me before". Two stages later, same thing.

If you keep it clean and use high quality shells, maybe you can bump up to 1:500. Some platforms/brands are more prone to malfunctions than others. I don't think I ever made it through a whole major match without at least a feed bobble from my 1100, so less than 1:150. I have made it through several entire majors without a bobble from my SLP though.

[CJW]

My Benelli M2 has about 750 rounds through it. I pretty much run Winchester AA #7.5 Heavy Target Loads, with the occasional Remington #6 Pheasant Load. Slugs have been Rem Managed Recoil, Winchester SuperX, and I just tried out B&P.

I am sure there must have been a hiccup or two but...I can't remember them. At the risk of jinxing myself, I haven't really cleaned it yet, but I've taken it apart a few times as I've tweaked the bolt release to ease loading, so the bolt has gotten the occasional wipe and oil. One of the things I like about this shotgun is how clean it shoots compared to my Remington 11-87...

[smokshwn]

1/200 seems to me to be about as good as we can expect. I know some folks will argue the good ammo argument but more money on ammo usually results in a much higher quality powder/wad/shot combo than they do in dimensional consistency. It is this dimensional inconsistency that we cannot get away from in shotguns. There is simply larger tolerances at every juncture with shotguns in there manufacture and parts and coupling that with ammo that can have large dimensional variance and I think the reliability standard cannot be near what we expect out of guns utilizing metallic cartridges.

[DyNo!]

1/200 was what I was going to post.

We want a lot to happen with very little powder to do it with.

We shoot man killing shotguns with bird killing ammunition and expect them to function.

It's unreasonable.

[mike cyrwus]

good ammo good ammo good ammo

[Chills1994]

I think the pressures are relatively low when it comes to shotgun shells.

Subsequently, I think the lower pressures result in a dirtier burn, which means more stuff to gunk up your gun.

I think if you buy the bulk pack stuff...well...you get what you pay for in terms of cleanliness...I think....

And I am thinking the cheaper the shell, the cheaper the plastic hull, which means it is more likely to deform and not feed properly.

[smokshwn]

good ammo good ammo good ammo

Mike,

Not being argumentative but what does that mean to you exactly?

When I was getting my Saiga ready and working out the break in bugs I sat down and put a mic and caliper to about fifteen different loadings and I could not find any better dimensional consistency from AA STS stuff on the high end to all the Wally World stuff on the low end.

I will agree more $$ buys better patterns (as they are designed to) but we are talking reliability here so as long as the shell is powerful enough to cycle the gun in question the dimensional consistency begins to be the determining factor.

[Chills1994]

take the cheap federal bulk pack, load up one of your Saiga mags with them.

With the bolt closed, try to drive the mag home.

Got the mag inserted? good!

wait a few minutes.

take the mag out, is the top shell deformed at all?

okay, now try that with a Remington Premiere or STS hull.

Does it do the same thing?

or am I totally off base as far as how one is supposed to feed and operate a Saiga?

[smokshwn]

Yes you are totally off base. As my Saiga will feed Walmart Remingtons like a sewing machine but will consistenly choke on Federal Gold Target....the difference being a dimensional one....overall shell length.

As to hull deformation my bolt is relieved to allow loading on a closed bolt so the contact is much less. However if you insert a loaded mag of ammo and wait any of the shells I have tried will deform to the extent they are touching the bolt.

[mpeltier]

good ammo good ammo good ammo

Sure, good ammo helps. I get about 1/200 with federal bulk that I use for practice. At big matches I use STS and get better reliability but still estimate its only about 1/500. By contrast my current rifle has thousands thru it with one ammo related malf.

Merlin must be a magician to get that many trouble free rounds thru his.

[Michael Flatley]

I use an M2 with a 24” barrel. I bought it about three years ago and it must stand at around the 15,000 round mark. I had a small period when I was having problems and I had a number of failure to feed issues. I was given a new mag spring by a kind gent and it solved the problem. Before I changed the spring I had about six or so failures but I would count this as one occurrence.

The only other times I can say I have had an issue was with a certain make of cheep ammo (which I used about 50 rounds and then sold them on) and also when it is very cold (below freezing) as I then may have one or two out of around 250 rounds – but I have learned to only lightly oil it if shooting in the cold weather.

Other than that I have had issues with the charging handle catching on cover etc, but these are issues with how the gun is being used, not the gun itself.

So for me I would expect a reliability issue once in possibly 1000 rounds (but more likely going on 2000!). Perhaps I have just been lucky – and I also got the gun second hand so already worn in.

One important point – I have an ammo type that works in my gun and I stick with it. I buy it in lots of 3000 to 6000 at a time so that I know I have the same ammo! Also the gun has not had too many modifications and it uses a standard stock, not the pistol grip!

M

[mlmiller1]

I must be way overdue. Since I got the benelli, my malfunctions have been nonexistent. I don't shoot nearly as much as some of you guys but I'm sure it has 1k through it easily, probably more.

My 1100, as awesome as it was let me down twice. Consecutive years at the same match in the same bay. I guess if I followed the once every 200rds theory, I would still be shooting it, heck, I should call it reliable as it had double that many rounds between malfs. HMMM, maybe I should pull it out of the back of the safe & take it to my next 3 gun? UHHH, no thanks. Think I'll stick with my basically stock benelli.

I wonder if there is a 12 gauge case gauge for ammo? Might solve some problems before they become a problem.

MLM

[1chota]

I must be way overdue. Since I got the benelli, my malfunctions have been nonexistent. I don't shoot nearly as much as some of you guys but I'm sure it has 1k through it easily, probably more.

My 1100, as awesome as it was let me down twice. Consecutive years at the same match in the same bay. I guess if I followed the once every 200rds theory, I would still be shooting it, heck, I should call it reliable as it had double that many rounds between malfs. HMMM, maybe I should pull it out of the back of the safe & take it to my next 3 gun? UHHH, no thanks. Think I'll stick with my basically stock benelli.

I wonder if there is a 12 gauge case gauge for ammo? Might solve some problems before they become a problem.

MLM

there is---contact JP

[1chota]

i had a remington 1100 that was the shotgun from the demon's workshop. it was problematical from the beginning. i sold it. i have a friend who shoots an 1100 competition model and it runs well. ???

i owned an SLP and liked it but sold it to a newcomer to the 3 gun game. it ran very well. i have a M2 21" that was my son's that is very good. no bobbles. i bought a used 24" M2 that looked like the world's ugliest Benelli. it had been shot alot and apparently never cleaned. i have had a few failures to feed with it. i ordered a new bolt spring and firing pin spring from Brownells. there was a noticeable difference in length. i just changed those out this week and have not had a chance to run the gun.

i did note that one batch of Federal bulk had lots of deformed shells right out of the box. i quit using those. i have shot the bulk stuff from remington and winchester and things went well. i do use AA or STS for matches, tho.

[speederx7]

forgive my ignorance, as I have only metallic reloaded, but can you improve your dimensional accuracy of shotshells by careful shotshell reloading? to me, this would seem to be the next step in shotgun reliability during matches.

[D.Hayden]

I know some (most?) people will disagree..

I use a PW 800

For me reloaded shells are never as good as factory shells. Factory shells like Remmington STS or Winchester AAs.. usually have perfect crimps, and no rough secitions on them at all. Each time a shell is fired and ejected, the crimp edges get a little rougher. None of this matters at all for my over-under.. but for the auto.. I use new shells for matches.

[Alaskapopo]

In my Saiga I have found Remington STS and Winchester AA to be the best.

Pat

[bigbrowndog]

Mark, I'd say 200-500 rounds without cleaning is a good run, I'd also say doing it with an unmodded gun would be easier than doing it with a modded gun, simply because it was designed to run without 5-6 pounds of extra crap hanging on it and moving around inside it.

However some of the mods that we perform do make guns run more reliably, but the vast majority only make them more user freindly, simply put extra crap on them, or make us believe that we NEED that mod.

The BEST mod you can do to your SG to have it be reliable, is maintain it consistently, and often. I would wager that most of us do not recall many, if not most of our malfunctions. Simply because we have other things on our minds when they happen, and we simply discard that painful event from our memory. Think of the number of times you've missed a target, can you recall the number of rounds fired at it before you hit it??????

Trapr

[CocoBolo]

Mark Won another 3-Gun with that Top End you sold me. My shot gun runs and runs and runs, but all I have to do to make it Crap is load it with Federal bulk. I only use Remington ShurShot 1/1/8 oz loads and its 9002 reliable (FN SLP 22"). Don't pickup dropped shells covered in sand and poke them back into the gun. About every 500 rounds I take it down and clean it with brake cleaner and hopps #9, squirt a little CLP in it and go.

For the guy with the 1100 I hunted serious dove, white wing. quail, duck, and geese for 40 years with my 1100 (a good hunting day is 10 boxes of shells), never had a problem, replaced the O-Ring about once every 5 years, gave it to one of my daughters she and her husband shoot the snot out of that old gun. Maybe they don't build the like the use to!

[smokshwn]

forgive my ignorance, as I have only metallic reloaded, but can you improve your dimensional accuracy of shotshells by careful shotshell reloading? to me, this would seem to be the next step in shotgun reliability during matches.

I know some (most?) people will disagree..

I use a PW 800

For me reloaded shells are never as good as factory shells. Factory shells like Remmington STS or Winchester AAs.. usually have perfect crimps, and no rough secitions on them at all. Each time a shell is fired and ejected, the crimp edges get a little rougher. None of this matters at all for my over-under.. but for the auto.. I use new shells for matches.

Dave, is very correct in the idea that the crimp is very important. But the dimensional consistency that I mentioned also takes into account overall length and the diameter/circumference of the case head.

Although some of the more expensive shells have a higher quality plastic designed to give the end user more reloads the overall length and case head still vary quite a bit. These two dimensions (IMO) are extremely important. If you can imagine only holding the rim of a shotgun round and trying to control it when the center of its gravity is toward the shot filled end you can begin to see how variances in shell length and the caserhead will severely effect how much the end of the shell is moving through out the loading cycle.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I have run about 4000 rounds through my M2 this season and I probably racked the bolt 5 times at the most due to a problem on the clock. I clean it every 200-300 rounds and it gets good bath of Mobile One oil after each cleaning. I run nothing but 1250 or 1300 fps AA's in matches but i practice with the cheap remington or federal wal mart bulk packs. It was also built by Accurate Iron.

If i had a malf every 200 rounds I would send it off to be fixed or buy a new one and have it setup by one of the known Benelli gunsmiths.

[SMSI]

Salient Benelli M2 bought right at 1 yr ago. approx 4000 rounds. 1 or 2 light primer strike, with W-M ammo. 2 inadvertant ghost load - not sure what going on there. 1 or 2 FTE, possibly due to limp wrist. 75% cheap wimpy ammo. 25% sts Remington. I don't think I've had any malfs with the STS. so I'm saying 1.5/1000 max. probably more like 1/1000.