Squads shooting the same way

[colt]

I ROed a stage today and noticed for the first time that when a squad comes up the majority would all shoot it the same way or direction. It was a stage that you pretty much after the start you went left or right with a few mixing it up.

Most of the squad would go the same way. Next squad most would go the other way with a few exceptions. It went back and forth all day like that.

I have ROed sever state match and have never notice this before have you? Maybe it was just the way the stage was layed out.

Brent

[Skydiver]

Was most of the squad shooting with the same bullet capacities among themselves? (eg. a squad of open/limited shooters, a squad of L10/production/SS shooters).

I try to design my stages to give maximum options to the shooters. I hate being stuck in a conga line during the walk through. I take great amusement and pleasure seeing shooters crossing each other during stage walkthroughs. It means that I've succeeded in letting shooters maximize their perceived strong suits, avoid their weaknesses, and let them try what they believe to be the winning strategy for their shooting style and capabilities.

[calvary45]

I have notice this on some short stages, but for the most part i dont pay attention because i am the guy that goes against the grain on almost all stages trying to make them left hand freindly.

[Merlin Orr]

Was most of the squad shooting with the same bullet capacities among themselves? (eg. a squad of open/limited shooters, a squad of L10/production/SS shooters).

I try to design my stages to give maximum options to the shooters. I hate being stuck in a conga line during the walk through. I take great amusement and pleasure seeing shooters crossing each other during stage walkthroughs. It means that I've succeeded in letting shooters maximize their perceived strong suits, avoid their weaknesses, and let them try what they believe to be the winning strategy for their shooting style and capabilities.

Yea.....

[Sin-ster]

I saw this recently at the Gator. The vast majority of my squad was L10 or Production, which made it a bit more pronounced. And several of the stages were pretty straight forward, or with only one optimal way for we low capacity types to shoot them.

On the stages with options, when the best shooter did his walk through and/or shot the stage, most everyone watched and did the same thing. I had gamed them all out a day early, and done the walkthroughs so many times that I wasn't about to change my plan. (The one time I did was shooting an array in a different order, and it cost me at least 2 seconds of fumbling around. Stupid, stupid, stupid.)

My personal belief is that stage planning is a very common weak area for most shooters. I'm far from the best myself, but I can find some tricky stuff every now and again-- although I often mooch off of the illustrious spanky, who sees all the angles at all times. Still, I don't always go for the "optimal" as I like to account for my own strengths and weaknesses. That, IMO, is one thing that most people don't even consider.

The better ones do though, for sure. I burned down a stage at the same match, sprinting all over the place and shooting half arrays from weird positions. When it was over, one of the better shooters in my squad said, "I'd love to do that, but I couldn't possibly remember all of those complex plans!" I knew right away he was going to be trouble.

[benos]

Still, I don't always go for the "optimal" as I like to account for my own strengths and weaknesses. That, IMO, is one thing that most people don't even consider.

Really getting a handle on that can be huge.

be

[steel1212]

LOL, when I shot that match it seemed I was doing my own thing compared to the rest of the squad. Not sure if it was the right thing, but it felt right to ME!

[Graham Smith]

I try and set up stages with options, but do tend to notice that most people do it the same way. I think it's because the less experienced shooters tend to follow the lead of the more experienced shooters, even when there may be a better approach for them.

[shred]

On most stages, there are one or sometimes two 'best' ways to shoot it (for any given division). There are often half a dozen 'reasonably good' plans, and a shooter that runs a good plan well frequently beats those that shoot the best plan poorly.

Following the crowd usually gets you onto a good plan and sometimes the best one. Execution becomes a little easier with the reinforcement of the rest of the squad and less mental calculations to burn it in. It can be tough to go against the crowd unless you're very sure you can pull it off.

[bbbean]

Going with the flow does offer the opportunity to let someone else figure out where the problems with the consensus plan might be. That said, I shot several matches this year as one of the only SS shooters in a primarily Lim/Open squad, so the consensus plan did absolutely nothing for me.

What I really like is two or three shooters in my division and a class or two better than me to show me how it's done on each stage! Then I can tweak the consensus plan to suit my own strengths and weaknesses.

BB

[wide45]

I have seen many times where most of the squad aped the first one up. Often it was a particularly poor plan.

[colt]

I should of said it was the Indiana S/S, Production,Revolver match. 28 rds.

There was 2 good ways to shoot it. It didn't matter from S/S to Production one squad went to the left and next went to right. You could shoot it other ways but I don't think it work as well. I thought it was interesting.

Had nothing to do with the match other that help RO. I thought the stages were all good stages.

Brent

[cas]

Monkey see monkey do?

I noticed the same thing at our club's "big match" of the year in Sept. I designed a stage that, mostly due to it's size and layout, there were literally a dozen or more ways to shoot it.

It was interesting to watch the squads come through. 80-90% of any given squad would all shoot it the same way. The ones who shot it differently did so to play to their strengths or perceived weaknesses.

Yet out of the 9 squads I saw the one day (no idea about the day before) no two squads shot it the same way.

It was fascinating to watch, but a bit confusing too.

[Supermoto]

Monkey see monkey do?

I noticed the same thing at our club's "big match" of the year in Sept. I designed a stage that, mostly due to it's size and layout, there were literally a dozen or more ways to shoot it.

It was interesting to watch the squads come through. 80-90% of any given squad would all shoot it the same way. The ones who shot it differently did so to play to their strengths or perceived weaknesses.

Yet out of the 9 squads I saw the one day (no idea about the day before) no two squads shot it the same way.

It was fascinating to watch, but a bit confusing too.

That was an excellent stage, If you tried to get an advantage on one part, you lost it on another. You definitely needed to know your strengths and weakness. Probably one of the best stages I have shot

[Sin-ster]

I will also say this-- I tend to work out the most aggressive (risk oriented) way to shoot the stage and make decisions from there. Lately, I've been running them ALL that way-- wide open, knock it out of the park or strike out. Pushing the limits and all of that.

And when you do that, you tend to go "against the grain" of the squad quite a bit. You'll also learn a crap ton about your own abilities, how to better weigh the risk vs. reward of any given plan, and which (complicated) parts of your walk through really need rehearsal. "And hit the stomp box..." in your brain often turns into "tapdance around the box trying to get the right foot position for the last shot of this upcoming array that you decided to lean around a wall on one foot to take" during the CoF.

ETA-- Meant to add "while reloading and then shooting the array in a different order than your original plan, which you had locked until 2 minutes ago".

Edited November 6, 2011 by Sin-ster

[TreblePlink]

Perhaps there is a bit of lemming in all of us.

[sargenv]

I think this may have happened at the nationals for one particular stage.. it was the only stage that I finished in the top 5.. I think most ppl shot it with the group, it was a 10 round course with three steel on either side of barricades and two swingers in the middle. The center steel in the group of three on the left set off the swinger on the right, and the other was vice versa.. You started gun on table, ammo on table, you were seated in a chair. I think most people shot it steel-steel-steel-activated swinger, reload, then change sides and repeat.. Since I was shooting with friends and not on a revolver squad, I shot it steel-steel-steel-steel-steel-steel-reload-swinger(2 shots)-swinger(2 shots). I had a miss and my time came in as the fastest time (under 11 secs) but that 1 mike cost me the stage win. It's not every day I can beat Jerry on a stage though

[hunt_fish]

Monkey see monkey do?

I noticed the same thing at our club's "big match" of the year in Sept. I designed a stage that, mostly due to it's size and layout, there were literally a dozen or more ways to shoot it.

It was interesting to watch the squads come through. 80-90% of any given squad would all shoot it the same way. The ones who shot it differently did so to play to their strengths or perceived weaknesses.

Yet out of the 9 squads I saw the one day (no idea about the day before) no two squads shot it the same way.

It was fascinating to watch, but a bit confusing too.

That was an excellent stage, If you tried to get an advantage on one part, you lost it on another. You definitely needed to know your strengths and weakness. Probably one of the best stages I have shot

Do you have a stage layout that we can see? Always keen to try the interesting stages! Cheers

[Supermoto]

Do you have a stage layout that we can see? Always keen to try the interesting stages! Cheers

I don't have a lay out, but it is the last stage in this video

You could go down either side of the wall,

if you went down the right, you had easier shots without ns in the way,but you shot the texas star out further,, but the targets on the left were harder.

down the left you has to shoot further on the right (where I stopped and shot a few targets)but the star was closer, but in an odd position.

Or you could go down the right side then switch to the left, but it was to many stops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBCFUihXbLw

Edited February 3, 2012 by Supermoto

[Chris iliff]

Just RO'd the 2012 Florida Open. What I found fascinating was most squads shot my stage 1 of 2 ways. However they decided the rest of the squad followed. There were several squads with Jamaicans and those squads all shot the same way. I figured word flew around the range as to what worked.

[PrinC]

I try and set up stages with options, but do tend to notice that most people do it the same way. I think it's because the less experienced shooters tend to follow the lead of the more experienced shooters, even when there may be a better approach for them.

This is what i would do if i am a rookie. Why re-invent the when you can go with the flow created by the more experienced guys?

[Sin-ster]

This is what i would do if i am a rookie. Why re-invent the when you can go with the flow created by the more experienced guys?

Quite commonly a D or C (or even B ) class shooter trying to do something like a Master Class shooter can result in a worse HF on the stage than if they simply played to their own strengths and covered for their weaknesses.

And of course... experience does not necessarily make one a good stage planner. Especially at an L1, where the best/most knowledgeable shooter in the Squad might only be a B-class competitor.

I typically like to walk through and get a plan, sit back and think about it for a bit, walk through and try a few things out, and then get a good sense of what I think is the best way to run the stage. On stages where there's some options or confusion, I typically discuss it with the better gamers in the squad, and then of course watch everyone before me run the stage to see if I missed anything or didn't consider an option.

I often still end up shooting things in a different way than the majority of the crowd. Two stages in particular at the AL Sectional come to mind, and I finished well on both of them. In fact, my best stage of all (3rd Overall), I can almost guarantee I shot one target array in particular in a different order than most everyone else, and I believe it was faster for me to do it that way while still getting all of the points.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Sin-ster

[steel1212]

The best thing I've seen posted so far is to shoot to your strengths and avoid your weaknesses. You'll do better onthe stage. If your not a GM don't try to shoot like one if that person is shooting wmeveryhing moving and that isn't your strength. If your fleet of foot use that to your advantage.

Just because it's what everybody else is doing doesn't make it right for you. Pay attention though there might be something you can incorporate into your plan though.

[MarkR]

I try and set up stages with options, but do tend to notice that most people do it the same way. I think it's because the less experienced shooters tend to follow the lead of the more experienced shooters, even when there may be a better approach for them.

This is what i would do if i am a rookie. Why re-invent the when you can go with the flow created by the more experienced guys?

I do this too sadly. After reading the post below yours, it's yet another thing to throw in to the barrel of things to work on. Not following GM's course of fire, because chances are, he's got me beat 99 to 1 and I've gotta play to my strengths and weaknesses on the stage.

[sroe3]

There's an RO/open gun shooter locally who loves to coach newbies. I've gone against his advice several times. I'll avoid a long shot for a chance to shoot the same target later and at closer range. I've added extra reloads when moving between positions to avoid a static reload should I need make up shots. I've shot arrays out of order to get a closer or open target first shot with my DA/SA gun. Stage planning for yourself is an important part of the learning process.

Edited April 21, 2012 by sroe3