IDPA Tiger Teams

[Merlin Orr]

I think 165 pf for 45 ACP is pathetic. C'mon. Give us army spec ammo, 230 gr at 885 +-25 FPS (taking the minus at 860 fps) is 197.8 pf. So dumb it down a bit to 825 fps and give us a power floor of 190.

165? for CDP? Come on. If you want to shoot antique guns, use real antique ammunition.

Steve... I am still looking for your redeeming quality...

I am thinking it is to alert us as to what the "lunatic fringe" element might be thinking....

[DWFAN]

No powerfactor/chronoing required. Factory Defensive hollow points only allowed.

No divisions, in the real world, you wouldnt tell the bad guy, hey no fair, I've only got 8+1 rounds of .45 to your 17rounds of 9mm.

No classifications, in the real world, you wouldnt ask the bad guy if he was an expert or Master, and if so, you need a 10 second head start.

Straight up, run whatcha brung.

Edited November 4, 2011 by DWFAN

[Steve Koski]

Merlin - Someone has to fill that role. You're not doing a very good job of appearing insane.

[BBBB]

Merlin - Someone has to fill that role. You're not doing a very good job of appearing insane.

Thanks for stepping up!

[waktasz]

No powerfactor/chronoing required. Factory Defensive hollow points only allowed.

No divisions, in the real world, you wouldnt tell the bad guy, hey no fair, I've only got 8+1 rounds of .45 to your 17rounds of 9mm.

No classifications, in the real world, you wouldnt ask the bad guy if he was an expert or Master, and if so, you need a 10 second head start.

Straight up, run whatcha brung.

No scores for the stages. You either complete it before the par time, or you die.

[Steve Koski]

Survivors get trophies. Non-survivors get, well, buried.

[Jim Watson]

Trapshooters take care of the equivalent of the power factor.

At the Grand American your entry fee includes your ammo. Sign in, take your squad card to the shell house, and pick your brand, but within the accepted load range of shot sizes and weights for the event. No reloads or even brought in factory loads. Income for ATA and guaranteed ammo specs.

[COF]

Since you wisenheimers want to make fun of us wheelgunners, here's one.

ESR requires 165PF out of a 4" vented barrel while CDP is 165 out of a 5" enclosed barrel, requiring hotter loads out of a revolver without the benefit of recoil attenuation (slide). How about taking ammo that makes 165 PF out of a 5"1911 (.45 or .40) and chronoing the same ammo out of a 4" revolver. This would give you a better baseline on a realistic power factor.

+ 1 for that idea. And lets bring the 5" barrel back for the revolvers...or else make the all the bottom feeders go down to a 4" barrel as well.

Can I get an AMEN!

[freeidaho]

Hey,

Just cause you guys have a leak in your chamber/barrel combo which BTW is longer than 5", please don't be mucking with my 5" daily carry gun I use in IDPA.

I think the whole idea is flawed. Recoil is the equal and opposite part of Neuten's Law. If a revolver launches a 230 grain projectile from its barrel at 800f/s, and a semi auto does the same, then they have the same recoil too. The fact that the revolver leaks out some of its power, and has to add more powder has nothing to do with recoil.

The difference in the revolvers grip shape is probably more of a factor in dealing with the recoil.

Shoot a gun with wax bullets or blanks..... almost no recoil.

Just a thought,

kr

Edited November 4, 2011 by freeidaho

[GlockCanMan]

No powerfactor/chronoing required. Factory Defensive hollow points only allowed.

No divisions, in the real world, you wouldnt tell the bad guy, hey no fair, I've only got 8+1 rounds of .45 to your 17rounds of 9mm.

No classifications, in the real world, you wouldnt ask the bad guy if he was an expert or Master, and if so, you need a 10 second head start.

Straight up, run whatcha brung.

You would lose a lot of shooters due to the price of ammo if this were the case.

[MrBorland]

I think the whole idea is flawed. Recoil is the equal and opposite part of Neuten's Law. If a revolver launches a 230 grain projectile from its barrel at 800f/s, and a semi auto does the same, then they have the same recoil too.

That must be Skippy Neuten's Law.

Newton's Law says that an opposite and equal force is applied to the gun, but isn't necessarily transferred to the shooter. Force is required to work the slide, so unless you're working the slide, that force is part of the "equal and opposite", leaving less transferred to the shooter.

The barrel length argument? Eh...apples & oranges, since semi-auto barrel length include the chamber, whereas revos don't.

All said, though, I'm in favor of dropping the PF for ESR - as it is, it realistically limits one to using a single gun (625) and cartridge (.45acp). ESR participation is low, so dropping the PF a bit would allow several other guns & cartridges to be used.

Tom

[dsmw5142]

No powerfactor/chronoing required. Factory Defensive hollow points only allowed.

No divisions, in the real world, you wouldnt tell the bad guy, hey no fair, I've only got 8+1 rounds of .45 to your 17rounds of 9mm.

No classifications, in the real world, you wouldnt ask the bad guy if he was an expert or Master, and if so, you need a 10 second head start.

Straight up, run whatcha brung.

You would lose a lot of shooters due to the price of ammo if this were the case.

Had to go and shoot it down didn't you? Right when I was stuffing my MK II with Stingers

[steel1212]

I think the whole idea is flawed. Recoil is the equal and opposite part of Neuten's Law. If a revolver launches a 230 grain projectile from its barrel at 800f/s, and a semi auto does the same, then they have the same recoil too.

That must be Skippy Neuten's Law.

Newton's Law says that an opposite and equal force is applied to the gun, but isn't necessarily transferred to the shooter. Force is required to work the slide, so unless you're working the slide, that force is part of the "equal and opposite", leaving less transferred to the shooter.

The barrel length argument? Eh...apples & oranges, since semi-auto barrel length include the chamber, whereas revos don't.

All said, though, I'm in favor of dropping the PF for ESR - as it is, it realistically limits one to using a single gun (625) and cartridge (.45acp). ESR participation is low, so dropping the PF a bit would allow several other guns & cartridges to be used.

Tom

I never got to play in IDPA where you could shoot a moon clipped 38. I bet that would be fun!

[Steve Koski]

And the days of cutting your .38 Spl brass down hella short are over too. Too bad, because it would only take 1.5 grains of BE to make 105 PF in them shorties.

[MrBorland]

And the days of cutting your .38 Spl brass down hella short are over too.

To be honest, I didn't realize it was ever IDPA-legal.

Here's a practical reason why shortening .38 brass isn't a good idea. True story: A fellow local wheelgunner apparently picked up a piece of shortened .38spl brass without realizing it was shortened. When it went into the expander die, it wasn't long enough to actuate the dispenser, so no powder was added. A few days later, he squibbed at the state championship and got a DNF for that stage*. Bummer.

I never got to play in IDPA where you could shoot a moon clipped 38. I bet that would be fun!

I bet so, too. An 8-shot 627 is on my wish-list. It's not IDPA-legal, but it'd make a great gun for some other games. Some little bitty .38 Short Colt brass ought to help the reloads quite a bit.

Tom

*btw, this shooter wan't me. Those who know me know that I, too, DNFd a stage at the State Match due to a squib. But my squib was entirely my fault.

[Chills1994]

Trapshooters take care of the equivalent of the power factor.

At the Grand American your entry fee includes your ammo. Sign in, take your squad card to the shell house, and pick your brand, but within the accepted load range of shot sizes and weights for the event. No reloads or even brought in factory loads. Income for ATA and guaranteed ammo specs.

When IDPA HQ can foot the bill (or some generous family) for a $100,000 cash payout for a world's or nat's level match, then we'll think about Winchester, Federal, Remington, or Atlanta Arms supplying the ammo for the match.

Somebody previously mentioned a calibration procedure for poppers in IDPA....pffffttttt!

If a popper doesn't fall when hit in the bulb or higher , then that equals a range equipment malfunction=reshoot.

As a USPSA match director, dragging around another gun with 120ish PF ammo is a huge PITA.

The SO's will just have to make sure the steel gets painted between shooters.

[gr7070]

What if we offed a revolver division?

That doesn't change the effect adding another division would have. Having six divisions isn't the problem with adding another division. The problem is further diluting the competition ranks of the three pistol divisions by adding fourth pistol division.

Erasing a revolver division doesn't address the problem adding a pistol division creates.

[sirveyr]

Trapshooters take care of the equivalent of the power factor.

At the Grand American your entry fee includes your ammo. Sign in, take your squad card to the shell house, and pick your brand, but within the accepted load range of shot sizes and weights for the event. No reloads or even brought in factory loads. Income for ATA and guaranteed ammo specs.

When IDPA HQ can foot the bill (or some generous family) for a $100,000 cash payout for a world's or nat's level match, then we'll think about Winchester, Federal, Remington, or Atlanta Arms supplying the ammo for the match.

Somebody previously mentioned a calibration procedure for poppers in IDPA....pffffttttt!

If a popper doesn't fall when hit in the bulb or higher , then that equals a range equipment malfunction=reshoot.

As a USPSA match director, dragging around another gun with 120ish PF ammo is a huge PITA.

The SO's will just have to make sure the steel gets painted between shooters.

It doesn't need to be a PITA. A simple calibration procedure would be to just shoot the failed popper with the competitors gun. I know that some clubs do this already. It would be nice to get a written procedure on the books though.

[Steve Koski]

That would be fast & easy to "administrate."

[gr7070]

Location needs to be prescribed, as well, e. g. Calibration shot shall strike no higher than midway up the steel and shall be taken from the location prescribed in the COF.

[Chills1994]

just paint the steel between shooters.

if it is hit in the circular bulbous region (pardon the Church Lady reference) or above and doesn't go down, stop the shooter, call it a REMF...the shooter gets a reshoot.

have the SO go out and check for wooden shoes under the popper's plate, give it the good ol' knuckle test, adjust whatever needs adjusting to pass the highly scientific knuckle test, and move on to the next shooter while the last shooter goes to re-load his mags and get his mental game back on.

a popper is about as crude an instrument as one could get for measuring PF.

That's what the chrono stage is for.

[45 Raven]

Some of the power factor issues would be self-correcting, and the IDPA sport would more closely depict realism in caliber power if the PF for major was increased to a minimum of 180.

Using only the .45 ACP as an example: Typically, almost every major ammunition manufacturer makes ammunition for the .45 ACP. The ammunition that is loaded with a 230 gr. bullet designed for self defense almost always breaks 825 FPS in a Commander length barrel, and exceeds that in a 5" barrel.

So let's assume that a "typical" self defense load from a factory ammunition maker (using the 230 gr. projectile) generates at least 800 FPS when fired in a 4" to 5" barrel. 800X230/1000 = 184PF.

So why is the current PF at 165? Make it 180 and align with real self defense ammo that is most likely carried on a daily basis. Isn't the "realism" factor important to IDPA?

Then let the .40 S&W, 10MM, and .45 GAP calibers shoot in CDP if they meet the 180PF.

Just thinking out loud. I'm sure others have different viewpoints.

Ken

[Chills1994]

45 raven wrote:

So why is the current PF at 165?

My guess is so that it is similar to IPSC/USPSA.

I think the powers that be at both IDPA and USPSA realized that both organizations have cross over shooters to be gained by making some rules between the two very similar.

Said another way, to make one organization more restrictive in its rules excludes some shooters, and the organization with the more restrictive rules will end up losing market share.

Well, hey, that's my theory anyway. I shoot both. I would just rather prefer not to make my reloading expenses go up. Making anything go up price-wise is probably another great way to lose market share.

I would also prefer not to inflict any more wear and tear on my guns.

EDIT: I don't like any reference to making any shooting sport "realistic" or having "realism". It's a game, with a timer, and a scorecard. There are no stage pre-briefings or walk throughs in real life. To make a match completely out of "blind"...err...."deaf" stages would NOT be logistically feasible.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Chills1994

[Loves2Shoot]

PF is not 165 in IDPA, it is 165,000 (not be like another sport, like half the IDPA rules are.)

It is a game, it is only a game. In life there are no rules, round restrictions, or power factor requirements.

[GlockCanMan]

We don't need to raise it to 180+. 165 is good enough. It is just a game. but I would agree to the fact that ESP or SSP guns can shoot in CDP also if they make the power factor and limit the mag capacity.