IDPA Tiger Teams

[Dragoon]

Here's another idea: instead of PF (which is 'momentum' (mass x velocity), afterall), why not go to a system based on muzzle energy (half mass x velocity squared) which is more applicable to self defense ammo. Let's say 300 Ft-lbs for SSP/ESP and 350 Ft-lbs for CDP and maybe 250 Ft-lbs for SSR. So to make 300 Ft-lbs a 9mm 125 grain bullet would need to go 1040 Ft/Sec, a .40 S&W 165 grain bullet would need 905 Ft/Sec. For 350 Ft-Lbs, a .45 ACP 230 grain bullet would need just under 830 Ft/sec. and a .40 S&W 180 grain bullet would need just over 935 Ft/sec. I'm flexible on the min ME figures; I'm just putting out some examples (I used this to calculate the MEs - http://www.airhog.com/convert.htm ). Thoughts?

[Merlin Orr]

What is wrong with what we have?

[DWFAN]

Thoughts?

I dont know what's broke with the PF rules as they stand. (besides MAYBE the ESR revo PF) If it aint broke, dont fix it. The only issue I see with PF is IDPA's insistance of the "Real World" defensive ammo verbiage schtuff they have in the rule book.

I for one dont want to have to load multiple types of ammo for the two sports. K.I.S.S. seems to apply here.

(Not that it really matters, of 2 years of IDPA Sanctioned match shooting, my ammo has been chronographed in a sanctioned match a total of 4 times.)

**Merlin Beat me to it.** and I agree.

Edited November 8, 2011 by DWFAN

[GlockCanMan]

Here's another idea: instead of PF (which is 'momentum' (mass x velocity), afterall), why not go to a system based on muzzle energy (half mass x velocity squared) which is more applicable to self defense ammo. Let's say 300 Ft-lbs for SSP/ESP and 350 Ft-lbs for CDP and maybe 250 Ft-lbs for SSR. So to make 300 Ft-lbs a 9mm 125 grain bullet would need to go 1040 Ft/Sec, a .40 S&W 165 grain bullet would need 905 Ft/Sec. For 350 Ft-Lbs, a .45 ACP 230 grain bullet would need just under 830 Ft/sec. and a .40 S&W 180 grain bullet would need just over 935 Ft/sec. I'm flexible on the min ME figures; I'm just putting out some examples (I used this to calculate the MEs - http://www.airhog.com/convert.htm ). Thoughts?

[AggieMM]

One thing I would like the tiger team to evaluate is the use of "pickup guns" on stages. Should they be allowed or limited. Maximum number of rounds for a pick-up-gun on a stage (2, 4, entire stage)? Types of pick-up-guns, etc.

This seems to be getting popular lately, but there doesn't seem to be any rules governing it. Should a Glock shooter be required to fire a 1911, or a 1911 shooter be required to fire a Glock?

The rules addendum has outlawed long-guns for sanctioned matches, but what about any match? Should a shooter with a bad shoulder (who shoots 9mm in SSP) be required to fire a 12 gauge shotgun?

Just a thought.....

Ryan

[jar]

One thing I would like the tiger team to evaluate is the use of "pickup guns" on stages. Should they be allowed or limited. Maximum number of rounds for a pick-up-gun on a stage (2, 4, entire stage)? Types of pick-up-guns, etc.

This seems to be getting popular lately, but there doesn't seem to be any rules governing it. Should a Glock shooter be required to fire a 1911, or a 1911 shooter be required to fire a Glock?

The rules addendum has outlawed long-guns for sanctioned matches, but what about any match? Should a shooter with a bad shoulder (who shoots 9mm in SSP) be required to fire a 12 gauge shotgun?

Just a thought.....

Ryan

I think pickup guns should be outlawed in sanctioned matches for sure. I could go either way for club matches.

[Chills1994]

no more cutting out the down zero area of a target.

if you're shooting so close (like from retention with your elbow pinned to your side ala Tom Cruise in the movie Collateral) , and it is blowing off pasters:

A. use better pasters

B. install new cardboard targets on a more frequent basis

I have/had video of one shooter at a match literally sticking his gun through the cut out down zero area of a target and going BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! You could clearly see the muzzle sticking out the back side of the target.

And from another major match there was an instructor who was squadded up with his students. When he and his students got to a stage with a down zero area cut out, he was over heard telling his students just to shoot off to the side, to pump their rounds into the back berm instead.

[Merlin Orr]

<And from another major match there was an instructor who was squadded up with his students. When he and his students got to a stage with a down zero area cut out, he was over heard telling his students just to shoot off to the side, to pump their rounds into the back berm instead.>

Just about have to hear it for myself to believe it......... I would think that if an "instructor" said that to students they would ex students in a few minutes....

[Chills1994]

I heard it from more than one source. Some people who were buddies on the same squad who previously as far as I know had no axe to grind with this so called instructor. whether this guy is teaching any more.... I dunno...shrugs shoulders... could care less because I can probably shoot circles around the guy even with him cheating.

[Steve Koski]

no more cutting out the down zero area of a target.

if you're shooting so close (like from retention with your elbow pinned to your side ala Tom Cruise in the movie Collateral) , and it is blowing off pasters:

A. use better pasters

B. install new cardboard targets on a more frequent basis

You mean a new target for every shooter?

Edited November 9, 2011 by Steve Koski

[Chills1994]

every third or fourth shooter.

or maybe just every new squad that shows up to the stage.

[Merlin Orr]

Draw a line across the hole before you tape it. If the tape blows off you are still "probably" good.

[Steve Koski]

every third or fourth shooter.

or maybe just every new squad that shows up to the stage.

That would work just fine for every third or fourth shooter.

[Steve Koski]

I'd DQ on the spot any a_-hole I saw dumping rounds next to a target.

[sirveyr]

every third or fourth shooter.

or maybe just every new squad that shows up to the stage.

That would work just fine for every third or fourth shooter.

Maybe every squad, but not every third shooter. Targets aren't free.

If I cut the zero out of the target it is REALLY close and I am assumming that MOST shooters can put their rounds through the hole from that distance. However, I also realize that some shooters just plain suck and could not hit the side of a barn when shooting at it while standing inside of it. I don't want to say that I've seen it all, but I've seen some really crazy shit when holding the timer.

[Chills1994]

It's up to the MD's and stage designers to figure that in when they put on matches.

What's a target cost...60 cents?

What's one person's match fee, 10 bucks, 15 bucks, 20 bucks?

a six buck match fee will buy you 10 targets, right?

seems like fairly cheap insurance to keep honest people...well...honest.

Steve Koski wrote:

I'd DQ on the spot any a_-hole I saw dumping rounds next to a target.

Yeah, I would like to, too, but I don't know how exactly I would go about backing that up with citation of something in the rulebook....there is that blanket "....anything that brings the sport into disrepute..." clause.

Right off the top of my head, I don't think I could quote chapter and verse any one particular rule....and you guys know me, I hate any discussions that bring up the word "spirit"...as in "the shooter's action were in direct opposition to the spirit of how the stage was supposed to be run."

[Steve Koski]

Page 15:

PC 2. Disqualification (DQ):

A. Results from unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions,

or the use of illegal equipment, which, in the opinion of the

MD, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting

sport will result in an FTDR or DQ from the entire match

at the discretion of the match director.

If dumping rounds next to a target doesn't qualify, I don't know what does.

Koski

[Steve Koski]

And from another major match there was an instructor who was squadded up with his students. When he and his students got to a stage with a down zero area cut out, he was over heard telling his students just to shoot off to the side, to pump their rounds into the back berm instead.

I'm calling B.S. Maybe they joked about it, but nobody did it. You heard it second+ hand, and I've heard it third+ hand. Give us names and the location and date of the match.

Koski

[Chills1994]

nope!

I don't name names at least not on the internet.

That borders on libel/slander.

What?! Am I stupid?

I don't feel like getting sued. And it's funny a thing....the more and more you get into guns and/or shooting the more personality conflicts there seem to be which eventually do devolve into lawsuits.

I don't even do email anymore. I got tired of other shooters doing the forward and BCC'ing thing via email...

"Well, Brad said this....and Brad said that..."

I'll send you a PM in a minute Steve.

[COF]

Draw a line across the hole before you tape it. If the tape blows off you are still "probably" good.

The only problem is you end up doing double work. I wouldn't even use the paster - just draw a line across the hole. Of course, you'd have some guy shooting a 9 claim his bullet went through the .45 hole.

Edited November 9, 2011 by COF

[COF]

And from another major match there was an instructor who was squadded up with his students. When he and his students got to a stage with a down zero area cut out, he was over heard telling his students just to shoot off to the side, to pump their rounds into the back berm instead.

Sounds like this guy was counting on the SO watching the target instead of the gun. At that range it would be very evident where the gun was pointing and a no-brainer on calling an FTDR.

[gigamortis]

Back on the issue of round dumping for more convenient reload points.....

Take CDP for instance. When I carry my 1911 on the street, I carry with a flush bottom 7 round mag in the gun for the concealment advantage a flush bottom magazine offers. So, straight out the holster, I have 7+1=8 at my disposal. As far as my spare mags go, they are extended tube 8 rounders with a flared basepad which offers a more positive purchase on the magazine when handling them in a stressful situation. This makes perfect sense out on the street, because if I need to reload in a life or death situation, I want every advantage I can get during the reload since my vulnerability while performing the reload is greater. The basepads even have a secondary benefit in a stressful situation because the magazine can be seated more reliably than a flush bottom one. This is the way I carry on the street, so why can't I compete the same way I carry? After all, isn't IDPA supposed to be real world carry oriented?

I say get rid of the magazine capacity rule that states one has to use the same capacity magazines throughout a whole match. As long as all the magazines you are going to be using are loaded to full mechanical capacity, so what? After all, in a real world self defense scenario, no one will be counting rounds in their heads under that level of stress anyway, and the only clue that the gun is dry is when the gun goes to slide lock. We are so engrained with an automatic 2 shots to each bad guy since we all play the IDPA game so much, that surely that will be the way we will perform in a real life self defense scenario. The human brain deals with even numbers so much easier than odd numbers, so why not use this inherent instinct to our advantage when under stress?

I also say get rid of the division capacity rule that is defined as the mechanical capacity of the magazine +1. There are a lot of concealed carriers that don't +1 up after charging their carry weapon with a 10 round magazine. The decision to +1 up or not upon initial charging should be at the shooter's discretion.

Since enforcing the round dumping rule is so discretionary, why not give all the shooters the option of how they want to initially charge their weapon? As long as the gun is charged with at least the mechanical capacity of the magazine, that should be good enough. So what if going +1 or not is viewed as "gaming". As long as every shooter had the opportunity to do it, the playing field will be level for everyone.

Edited December 17, 2011 by gigamortis

[sirveyr]

I have never seen so many kittens killed in a single post.

[Paul-the new guy]

Most targets with the down zero removed are so close you would be able to tell immediately if a shooter indexed to the side of the target. In my experience those targets are more about taking up a little time then getting down zero hits which is pretty hard not to do.

[reichebrown]

Seeing someone classified as Master in one division and then shooting Sharpshooter, or worse, in another is just wrong.

Hey that hurts... In my defense its safe to say im no "expert" with a 625.

In all seriousness I look forward to seeing some changes