Dan Burwell Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I think a lot of folks are thinking about how well you can move around a stage while being physically fit and miss what happens overall in a match. Major matches are often shot all day during the summer heat. Being in good physical shape may not help so much on a 70 degree day with 5 stages to shoot, but I guarantee at the end of a 10 stage match in the 90 degree heat the guy in better physical shape will be more physically and mentally ready to shoot those last couple of stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I think a lot of folks are thinking about how well you can move around a stage while being physically fit and miss what happens overall in a match. Major matches are often shot all day during the summer heat. Being in good physical shape may not help so much on a 70 degree day with 5 stages to shoot, but I guarantee at the end of a 10 stage match in the 90 degree heat the guy in better physical shape will be more physically and mentally ready to shoot those last couple of stages. without a doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Taran Butler doesn't look very svelte on the cover of Front Sight. He does OK. If TB was in shape, no one would beat him But he's not, so they do. I'm not buying that one. Taran's what,70lbs overweight? And he's a top shooter. Are you saying he's that much better a shooter than everyone else? His splits, transitions, reloads and accuracy are that much better than the rest of the top guys? Only movement from shooting position to shooting position is stopping him from ruling the shooting world? Course, I could just be projecting my own inadequacies... Yes to all your questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Back in the day, Robbie and I did some serious studies on various "sizes" of shooters, and their movement times from position to position typically encountered in most matches. We timed small, nimble guys, and good sized overweight guys - of the same skill level - and could not find any apprecialble differences in their movement times. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Back in the day, Robbie and I did some serious studies on various "sizes" of shooters, and their movement times from position to position typically encountered in most matches. We timed small, nimble guys, and good sized overweight guys - of the same skill level - and could not find any apprecialble differences in their movement times. be Thank you Brian....hang on, yes go ahead and super size that.....thanks!! ok sorry I was ordering and posting at the sametime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Back in the day, Robbie and I did some serious studies on various "sizes" of shooters, and their movement times from position to position typically encountered in most matches. We timed small, nimble guys, and good sized overweight guys - of the same skill level - and could not find any apprecialble differences in their movement times. be Interesting. How did you determine they were the same skill level? Did you compile quantitative data, or was it an observation/qualitative type study? In any case, I feel much less guilty about this wonderful malty, hoppy. but carb-laden beverage I'm about to have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty whiteboy Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Taran Butler doesn't look very svelte on the cover of Front Sight. He does OK. If TB was in shape, no one would beat him But he's not, so they do. I'm not buying that one. Taran's what,70lbs overweight? And he's a top shooter. Are you saying he's that much better a shooter than everyone else? His splits, transitions, reloads and accuracy are that much better than the rest of the top guys? Only movement from shooting position to shooting position is stopping him from ruling the shooting world? Course, I could just be projecting my own inadequacies... Strap a 70lb vest on Nils, Travis, or Dave or any other "fit" shooter and see how well they do. That's 24/7 not just during a match!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joedodge Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 wow thanks for all the great replys everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonovanM Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Taran Butler doesn't look very svelte on the cover of Front Sight. He does OK. If TB was in shape, no one would beat him But he's not, so they do. I'm not buying that one. Taran's what,70lbs overweight? And he's a top shooter. Are you saying he's that much better a shooter than everyone else? His splits, transitions, reloads and accuracy are that much better than the rest of the top guys? Only movement from shooting position to shooting position is stopping him from ruling the shooting world? Course, I could just be projecting my own inadequacies... Strap a 70lb vest on Nils, Travis, or Dave or any other "fit" shooter and see how well they do. That's 24/7 not just during a match!!! Not a valid argument. Taran has adapted to the comparatively extra weight and the people you mentioned have not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 This is me in the blue shirt down below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICkaMmbFb9E&feature=player_embedded I think what was said up above about a 10 stage match in 90 degree heat was spot on. Buttt...I work outside in the heat 8, 10, 12 hours plus a day...or night. I kinda snicker to myself when I see office people out in this heat and hear them complain. I have noticed when I am lighter in the 180 to 190 range I do sweat less. I am now up in the 240's. I am age 39. (but I can still do over 7 pull ups, probably over 10, real pull ups, not that stuff the CrossFit'ers call a pull up... I mean an honest to goodness "one for the Corps, one for the Commandant" pullup). That video was from my (I am the MD) match this past Saturday. We had 44-ish shooters. I placed 11th overall (in the combined UNofficial results). Would I have placed better if I was lighter? Maybe. Would I have placed better if I had shot major? Sure. Would I have placed better if I had actually gotten more than 3 hours of sleep? Oh, heck, yeah! Switching gears here a whole bunch....I think it is a matter of vanity, mostly, that people size you up and mentally pigeon hole you in about two seconds of first seeing you. People...well...most people just interpret fatness as being equal to laziness...and they can be very judgmental about it....although most people will just keep such judgments to themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I can see how the big guys keep up with the short distance stuff. In multigun with 200 second stages over rolling hills, the herd gets thinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n1guess Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 the way i see it the physical part of shooting is muscle memory the better shape you are the better it will be...i dont think you can be in such good shape that you can out run a good shooter...but if you put two shooters with the same skill level one is in great shape and 1 is out of shape the great shape guy will win every time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 DyNo! wrote: I can see how the big guys keep up with the short distance stuff.In multigun with 200 second stages over rolling hills, the herd gets thinner. We don't have the ranges or the facilities, yet, in or around the St. Louis area to set up a 200 second multigun stage. We may look fat and old, but there is no way yet to eyeball up mental toughness or intestinal fortitude, especially when failing and looking like a _ _ _ _ is not an option. Peer pressure can do amazing things. walk a mile in my shoes...and all that....yada ....yada... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) DyNo! wrote: I can see how the big guys keep up with the short distance stuff.In multigun with 200 second stages over rolling hills, the herd gets thinner. We don't have the ranges or the facilities, yet, in or around the St. Louis area to set up a 200 second multigun stage. We may look fat and old, but there is no way yet to eyeball up mental toughness or intestinal fortitude, especially when failing and looking like a _ _ _ _ is not an option. Peer pressure can do amazing things. walk a mile in my shoes...and all that....yada ....yada... Trust me I believe you - Taran Butler is still faster than most of us and Jerry Miculek isn't slowing down much either. I'm still waiting for the thread that asks, "Which facial hair is best for 3-gun?" Edited September 21, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 maybe we can convince Jesse to start that thread, and then make it a poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 the way i see it the physical part of shooting is muscle memory the better shape you are the better it will be...i dont think you can be in such good shape that you can out run a good shooter...but if you put two shooters with the same skill level one is in great shape and 1 is out of shape the great shape guy will win every time... Not according to the tests Brian and Leatham did, see post above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I just don't see how a guy could drop 100lbs and not be able to do a 10-20 yard sprint faster than before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty whiteboy Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Taran Butler doesn't look very svelte on the cover of Front Sight. He does OK. If TB was in shape, no one would beat him But he's not, so they do. I'm not buying that one. Taran's what,70lbs overweight? And he's a top shooter. Are you saying he's that much better a shooter than everyone else? His splits, transitions, reloads and accuracy are that much better than the rest of the top guys? Only movement from shooting position to shooting position is stopping him from ruling the shooting world? Course, I could just be projecting my own inadequacies... Strap a 70lb vest on Nils, Travis, or Dave or any other "fit" shooter and see how well they do. That's 24/7 not just during a match!!! Not a valid argument. Taran has adapted to the comparatively extra weight and the people you mentioned have not. Professional football players have many years of practice and games in full pads/uniform(plenty of time to adapt to its weight), do they run a faster 40 yd dash with or without the pads and uniform??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 the way i see it the physical part of shooting is muscle memory the better shape you are the better it will be...i dont think you can be in such good shape that you can out run a good shooter...but if you put two shooters with the same skill level one is in great shape and 1 is out of shape the great shape guy will win every time... Not according to the tests Brian and Leatham did, see post above. In most categories of sport, tests conducted thirty years ago are no longer definitive. Just who were the fat guys winning USPSA Nationals thirty years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I think how you move, how efficient your movements are and how well you can control your movements is more important than foot speed. Back when I started in USPSA, I could guarantee that I could out run most from box to box or port to port. But I couldn't stop when I got there, I lost more time getting composed and ready to shoot then I made up getting there. The real eye opener for me was during a class with TJ, He set up a 5 boxes horizontally spaced out a yard or 2 with 1 target in front of each at 7 yards. I ran, he walked. He was faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) I just don't see how a guy could drop 100lbs and not be able to do a 10-20 yard sprint faster than before. One thing I've noticed about French IPSC videos is that they run quite a bit during pistol shooting. Most of the USPSA stages I've seen don't involve that much sprinting. Example: Edited September 21, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Being in shape will always help. I'm not talking about being skinny... I'm saying having muscle strength to do certain things. For example, I can bet you that if you are a weak skinny guy or a weak fat guy... you will be just as slow to stop after moving, and then redirect your motion in the opposite direction. Now, if you are in shape/have conditioned muscles where you can run, stop yourself quickly, and then redirect your motion... this kind of stuff with help...and both skinny and fat people can do this. Its not as much about body mass as it is muscle strength. If your muscles allow you to run up to a shooting position quickly... have a quick balancd stop, this will let you get your sights on target faster. Then if you are capable of shifting weight/accelerating quickly to your next position, you will cut down on time vs. the people who have to take time to align themselves when they stop because they are not capable of stopping and being balanced after moving quickly. There are a lot of "fat" people that can move and redirect. Look at some of the linemen in the NFL... quite a few are pretty big(fat) guys, yet they are strong enough where they can move and stop that weight well. MIke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) I think the first thing that needs to happen is we need to define being "in shape" as it apply's to USPSA style shooting. It appears so far that means being skinny or at least not big/fat/chubby/whatever. I am definitely old and fat but I can bench press nearly 300 lbs, squat 500, curl 160, and do 35 minutes on the treadmill. If you come and play my other "sport" (Aikido/Judo) you will quickly decide that I am in great shape for that game. My shooting game has definitely slowed over the last 20 years, just as my weight has gone up, but that is more to do with loss of vision then foot speed. The physical training plans we design for guys doing martial arts like Aikido and Judo are completely different then ones that would be optimum for a game like USPSA or IDPA. Could Butler get faster if he lost some weight? Probably but it would depend a lot on how he lost the weight and what he replaced it with. As a side note Mr. rgkeller, there was a old fat guy in the old days named Dixon I believe, out of Texas, that would surprise you with his speed and success ... Edited September 21, 2011 by Bob Hostetter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 "You move pretty fast for a big man" "Yeah, surprising ain't it? Surprised some people right to death." Frank Sinatra and Dan Blocker in Lady in Cement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) How important is rigorous training to shooters and diet? Im 160 pounds 5 foot 6 inches not fat but not skint like a rail. How much does physical fitness play into our sport i know core strength and agility are important but are the cut and ripped hard core tai ning guys really that much better at our game. I don't think it makes a difference. Look at the 2011 L10 nationals finals. Robert Vogel is very fit and moves very quick. Then we have RL with 2 new knees finishes second to Vogel by less than 1 point and finishing in front of some of the other quick on there feet type of guys! Not to mention he has won the SS classic 16years in a row! I am convinced it is all about target to target transitions and being ready to shoot "A's" as soon as you get to a position! Edited September 21, 2011 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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