Will web data update today?

[Racer377]

as much as I'd like to see the update, the reasons for the late update make some sense.

I keep an excel sheet tracking my classifiers, between that and the various calculator sites, I'm pretty sure I know what the update will show for me +/- a few tenths of a percentage point.

[bbbean]

O.K., but that could result in a competitor shooting an entire Area match on Friday, in B class, and then Saturday's update adds in a classifier submission that bumps him to A. Which class do we now use to to calculate his area match finish?

Whatever his published class was when the match started. That's what is happening this week at the Nats - odds are that there are several competitors who would be a class up from their published class if the update had been run last week. But that will happen regardless of whether you update monthly, weekly, annually, or at random intervals.

BB

[Hawthorne2k]

It's 10:30 am in WA right now, plenty of time for them to have had their vente half-caf double whip soy lowfat frappumickeymouseucchino (Hey, it is Seattle, after all... ) and uploaded the scores to the database.

[spanky]

I suspect we won't see an update til around 3-5 business days after the close of Lim/Prod nats.

[JakeMartens]

It's 10:30 am in WA right now, plenty of time for them to have had their vente half-caf double whip soy lowfat frappumickeymouseucchino (Hey, it is Seattle, after all... ) and uploaded the scores to the database.

except that they are not in WA, they are in Vegas.

which means that they cannot run the updates becasue they are busy scoring the Nationals,

which is silly

[Strick]

The part I don't understand about not running the classifiers prior to the nationals is that shooters that should have been bumped are now competing at a class lower than they should be. Classifiers need to be in by the 10th so there was plenty of time to run them..........you would think.

[spanky]

The part I don't understand about not running the classifiers prior to the nationals is that shooters that should have been bumped are now competing at a class lower than they should be. Classifiers need to be in by the 10th so there was plenty of time to run them..........you would think.

Yep.

[bbbean]

The part I don't understand about not running the classifiers prior to the nationals is that shooters that should have been bumped are now competing at a class lower than they should be. Classifiers need to be in by the 10th so there was plenty of time to run them..........you would think.

What he said.

[Skydiver]

I suspect that the job of updating the classifiers each month is a lot more complicated than we think it is.

If you've ever called USPSA around that time period, the staff sounds pretty busy and harried. Part of me envisions it like doing year end inventory and end of quarter reports all rolled into one. The other part of me hopes that it isn't that complicated, and it's just a matter of verifying that clubs have paid the fees, and trying to match up shooter name misspellings and brand new members. The part of the classification update that has always puzzled me is this part of the rule book:

To guard against the possibility of incorrect stage setup or typographical error, scores that are more than 15 percent above your current classification bracket are evaluated at the time of entry to see if such a score would adversely affect your classification. In general, those scores are entered, but occasionally a score is so out of the ordinary it is not used and flagged with an A.

Does that mean that somebody has to manually look at all scores 15% above the current class?

[Poppa Bear]

Yep, They have to evaluate if all classifiers for that club were higher than expected, which points to it being set up wrong. They then have to check for input errors. If a GM can shoot the string in 4.02, but the C shooter did it in 4.23 is it because the stats person entered a 4 when he should have entered a time of 7.23? This is much easier to find in multi-string classifiers. If the times are Freestyle 5.25, Strong hand 5.85, and Weak hand 3.44 They can almost bet it is an input error that was not caught.

An unfortunate error in EZWin is the inability to catch extra No Shoots and Procedurals. I have hit a key and had my fat fingers hit two so that instead of 1 or 2 being entered 12, 21, or 23 gets entered. That will zero a stage almost every time. It would be nice to have an error message kick out anytime the number of penalties is in double digits that says "Are you sure the competitor had XX NS or Procedurals". It always kicks out an input error if the number of shots fired does not agree with the stages required number, so why not have one that kicks out an input error for excessive penalties?

[Skydiver]

Yep, They have to evaluate if all classifiers for that club were higher than expected, which points to it being set up wrong. They then have to check for input errors. If a GM can shoot the string in 4.02, but the C shooter did it in 4.23 is it because the stats person entered a 4 when he should have entered a time of 7.23? This is much easier to find in multi-string classifiers. If the times are Freestyle 5.25, Strong hand 5.85, and Weak hand 3.44 They can almost bet it is an input error that was not caught.

Actually the won't catch these errors easily. The classifier text file that gets uploaded to only has the hit factors for the classifier, and the overall match percentages. The fine grained per stage data of hits, times, penalties, etc., is only in the match webfile.txt. If a club only uploads the classifier text file, but not the match webfile.txt, there is no way to detect this kind of error. What if the GM just forgot to eat his Wheaties or had a gun jam?

An unfortunate error in EZWin is the inability to catch extra No Shoots and Procedurals. I have hit a key and had my fat fingers hit two so that instead of 1 or 2 being entered 12, 21, or 23 gets entered. That will zero a stage almost every time. It would be nice to have an error message kick out anytime the number of penalties is in double digits that says "Are you sure the competitor had XX NS or Procedurals". It always kicks out an input error if the number of shots fired does not agree with the stages required number, so why not have one that kicks out an input error for excessive penalties?

Be sure to contact Rob Boudrie and send this suggestion. It sounds like a good one.

[Poppa Bear]

When I upload they get both files. More of what I was meaning about the HHF for a shooter was if the HF was out of proportion for the shooters apparent level there are a couple of things that can quickly determine if it was an error of some sort. Then a quick email to have the stats person verify the numbers. I have never had USPSA call for a correction but I have had several shooters ask for verification like the guy I gave 16 procedurals to because I punched in a 6 before I moved the cursor into the time box. He had zeroed the stage so seeing a HF of zero was expected. Seeing all those procedurals was not.

[MGMorden]

Whether both files get sent in or not is somewhat irrelevant though. You're basically just describing review for statistically unlikely data. All the situations you described could be much more efficiently and quickly identified by a computer than by a human, which if any such review is occurring, is my bet is to how they're doing it.

[wgnoyes]

(This topic's drifting, but I have to ask this.)

I understand keypunch errors can happen, but.... we ARE making use of the "verify list for stats" feature and going back and verifying what we've keyed in, aren't we? You don't have to print the list; you can look at the list on the screen and check off the line items as you compare back to the scoresheets. (Right-click on a detail line to check it off.) I do that for EVERY lvl1 match I score. For lvl2 and above, we print the listings.

[justaute]

Irrespective of how the classification updating process is handled, it would be nice for USPSA to inform its members regarding status and timing. Of course, based on how infrequently its website is updated, I guess there must be other priorities.

Edited September 21, 2011 by justaute

[t0066jh]

Irrespective of how the classification updating process is handled, it would be nice for USPSA to inform its members regarding status and timing. Of course, based on how infrequently its website is updated, I guess there must be other priorities.

+1 on this one.

USPSA home office has tons of work to get ready for Nationals

USPSA home office knows that members want updates on their class as frequently as possible

USPSA home office needs to tell members several months in advance when the last update before Nationals will be run. Just let the membership know what's going to happen. We'll all adjust to what the rules are going to be. Result. the end of all conjecture as to what could or should or might be done and why. If we don't like it, lobby to get it fixed or vote someone in who promises to fix it.

just MHO

Joe

[Skydiver]

Irrespective of how the classification updating process is handled, it would be nice for USPSA to inform its members regarding status and timing. Of course, based on how infrequently its website is updated, I guess there must be other priorities.

+1 on this one.

USPSA home office has tons of work to get ready for Nationals

USPSA home office knows that members want updates on their class as frequently as possible

USPSA home office needs to tell members several months in advance when the last update before Nationals will be run. Just let the membership know what's going to happen. We'll all adjust to what the rules are going to be. Result. the end of all conjecture as to what could or should or might be done and why. If we don't like it, lobby to get it fixed or vote someone in who promises to fix it.

just MHO

Joe

Or perhaps get volunteers to help get the last set of updates processed if it's a matter of getting enough manpower for those peak months/weeks.

[DrawandDuck]

Amazing at all the belly aching that goes on for a delay in classifiers, one would almost think it was a deposit into your checking account or something......happens every year

Edited September 23, 2011 by DrawandDuck

[vluc]

Amazing at all the belly aching that goes on for a delay in classifiers, one would almost think it was a deposit into your checking account or something......happens every year

[ima45dv8]

Amazing at all the belly aching that goes on for a delay in classifiers, one would almost think it was a deposit into your checking account or something......happens every year

Yep.

[Nik Habicht]

USPSA home office needs to tell members several months in advance when the last update before Nationals will be run. Just let the membership know what's going to happen. We'll all adjust to what the rules are going to be. Result. the end of all conjecture as to what could or should or might be done and why. If we don't like it, lobby to get it fixed or vote someone in who promises to fix it.

While that would be a nice solution, the other one that works well is just to be a member for a few years......

If you're active, and looking at your classification page occasionally, you'll soon identify the pattern, if Nationals or other large activities (potentially SHOT, Steel Challenge Championships) are scheduled around the time of a classification update, the update will likely be delayed, as a large portion of the staff is addressing other priorities.....

[professor]

Rule 6.4.2 Only current USPSA classifications may be used in determining Class awards.

Note, if headquarters determines that creating and publishing updated Classifications will interfere with the match data processing, they may defer running the monthly reclassification until after the match(es). When I picked up my match goody bag, they verified my information for stats processing. Name, Division, Power Factor, Class, other categories [age, gender, LEO, etc.].

I don't see any problem whatsoever with the August classifications being used for the Nationals matches in September, especially when USPSA staff have to set up on site in Nevada to be ready to process the results ASAP during the match. Competitors expect to see interim results sometime in the evening after each day's shooting.

Besides, say you are moving up in classification from C to B Class. Wouldn't you want to be one of the C Class shooters with a better chance at winning your class, than a newly minted B class shooter competing against established B class shooters?

[JakeMartens]

Rule 6.4.2 Only current USPSA classifications may be used in determining Class awards.

Note, if headquarters determines that creating and publishing updated Classifications will interfere with the match data processing, they may defer running the monthly reclassification until after the match(es). When I picked up my match goody bag, they verified my information for stats processing. Name, Division, Power Factor, Class, other categories [age, gender, LEO, etc.].

I don't see any problem whatsoever with the August classifications being used for the Nationals matches in September, especially when USPSA staff have to set up on site in Nevada to be ready to process the results ASAP during the match. Competitors expect to see interim results sometime in the evening after each day's shooting.

Besides, say you are moving up in classification from C to B Class. Wouldn't you want to be one of the C Class shooters with a better chance at winning your class, than a newly minted B class shooter competing against established B class shooters?

Something that every major match has to do. Once the update is ran you upload into your match data base, it updates the classification in ezwinscore, then you print your check in sheet, takes about 10 minutes.

[sperman]

Rule 6.4.2 Only current USPSA classifications may be used in determining Class awards.

Note, if headquarters determines that creating and publishing updated Classifications will interfere with the match data processing, they may defer running the monthly reclassification until after the match(es). When I picked up my match goody bag, they verified my information for stats processing. Name, Division, Power Factor, Class, other categories [age, gender, LEO, etc.].

I don't see any problem whatsoever with the August classifications being used for the Nationals matches in September, especially when USPSA staff have to set up on site in Nevada to be ready to process the results ASAP during the match. Competitors expect to see interim results sometime in the evening after each day's shooting.

Besides, say you are moving up in classification from C to B Class. Wouldn't you want to be one of the C Class shooters with a better chance at winning your class, than a newly minted B class shooter competing against established B class shooters?

What about the guy who would have won C class, if the classifications were updated and his competition was moved up to B.

[justaute]

FWIW... my comments are not meant to be offensive nor are they meant to vent. I have a pretty dissociative personality.

I, for one, am not having any belly-aching over this issue as shooting/USPSA is not that big a part of my life. I merely shared my observation and pointed out a simple, effective way to communicate. Why should people have to be a long-term member to identify a pattern? Here's my view of classification issues in general.

- One should temper one's expectation of USPSA as it is not a professional organization. (heck, based on my experience of high-level corporate america, I have very little expectation of any organization.)

- Notwithstanding of my nascent shooting life, I tend to measure myself against all shooters within my division, not just within my class. Nonetheless, classification does provide a perspective regarding my progress.

- It should take very little effort for USPSA to post a message on its website regarding the timing of classification update.

- When in doubt, communicate at the level of lowest common denominator. This minimize guessing or inference from members.

Just my 2 pesos worth of opinion.... now, how do I find more time to shoot more?