Pistol Caliber Carbine in pistol matches?

[dcloudy777]

Okay, we don't have to bother with the "never gonna happen" and "too many divisions already" arguments, I know that we'll never see PCC in USPSA. What I'm, asking is... if it was happening, would you play? The thread a few weeks ago about the guy with the MP5 wanting to shoot 3-gun got me to thinking. An open pistol with a comp, dot sight, and 28-30 round mags really isn't functionally much different than an MP5 or 9mm AR, particularly within 50 yards. 3-gun really isn't the place for PCC, (except the small matches where long-range isn't available), but I think pistol matches would be just fine. A low-ready, trail-ready, or port arms start wouldn't be any faster than a draw from a holster. Pistols are actually faster to reload and easier to maneuver around a course of fire. Quick and dirty rule set for 2 PCC divisions:

All PCC: Any USPSA legal cartridge is allowed, and .30 Carbine in allowed. All PCC is scored Minor.

PCC Open: 30 round magazine limit. Comps and optics allowed.

PCC Limited: 15 round magazine limit. Muzzle device size-limited, no optics.

Comments welcome, flame suit on.

DanO

[DWFAN]

I might play.. but my shooting time and budget is stretched enough. I cant see adding much else unless giving up something. I also cant see giving up shooting a pistol for a PCC match.

Now.. if someone was to hold a side or "after" match, PCC match and shoot the stages that were already set up, I might consider that.

[shooterready]

Great idea, but 30 Carbine is a little hard on on steels.

[TMC]

Pistols are actually faster to reload and easier to maneuver around a course of fire

Maybe not. At SSM3G Stage 2 could be shot with either a pistol or rifle. I think it was 40 rounds maybe a couple more or less, had one port with a drop turner and a clam shell and another port with 2 swingers both activated by bear traps, a bunch of partial targets and the last position was under a "car" with an opening about 12" high, pistol guys wetn prone, rifle guys did allot of weird contortions to get under it. I shot it with a rifle (through my Accupoint) in 22.17 clean and won the stage in Tactical, Keith was 2nd and shot it with a pistol in 23.41 clean. Taran, Daniel and Nils also shot it with a pistol in 21.06, 22.14 and 23.40 but with misses. JoJo, Clint and Mike in Open shot it with pistols 21.90, 21.98 and 22.86. Interesting stuff

Great idea, but 30 Carbine is a little hard on on steels.

Its only about a 215 power factor, 110 at 1,950fps

I bought a 9mm AR upper a few years ago when a few of our club members started talking about shooting them after the regular club pistol match. I think it happened once. It made for a really long day when the pistol match ends at 2:00. I take mine out every once in a while to Saturday IPSC practice to get in some rifle practice on the stage. Cool thing is you can shoot the steel with it instead of just the paper with a .223

So yes, I would do it. One of the clubs around here had a division for it a while back but it died out due to lack of interest.

I would think that if you used a true pistol caliber our local club would let you do it for fun but not for match score.

[dillon]

A few years ago I spoke with Mike Voigt about doing something like this. Locally, the range is so scheduled that it would be hard to do. Considering so many ranges lack the distance for rifle, it makes sense.

[CocoBolo]

We have an IDPA club that holds a couple Two gun matches every month, mostly CQB rifle courses with a few transitions to or from pistol, about 100 rifle and 25 rd pistol. It is a blast. You get all kinds there, ATAS, with camo and molle vests, AR's with 27 rails etc. I made all the AR guys mad winning it with a 9 mm Camp 9 Carbine, accuracy is big in IDPA. So there are places for these pistol carbines to be shot in a match. The guys in one of the USPSA clubs I'm in are planning a CQB carbine match, they just need to get some trigger time on thier rifles, me to.

Edited June 25, 2011 by CocoBolo

[mdschappell]

a few local matches permit PCC in steel matches and in a few USPSA matches. They are shot as a different class of their own. I shot with a PCC shooter in my squad at one of these matches, and it had no effect on the match, it did not slow anything down, and did not appear to be a problem to me. It was actually kinda cool to watch and looked like fun.

It was interesting to note that this shooter shot faster with his open pistol than with his carbine.....

[gng4life]

I allow PCC in my Steel Challenge matches. I haven't had anyone show up yet with one but one guy has raised interest and said he will be out next month with this AR-15 9mm upper. The manufacturer told me the steel is fine for this so I don't see any problems.

[Topmaul]

The range were I used to shoot 3 gun/mult-gun monthly matches had complaints about noise so they made two of the 3 stages PPC. Only one bay was open for rifle shooting.

So I bought a Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm so I like the idea.

[StealthyBlagga]

Our local monthly 3-gun match (at Rio Salado, Mesa, AZ) runs under IMA-SMM3G rules. There is nothing in IMA-SMM3G rules specifically prohibiting pistol caliber carbines (the ammo requirements are somewhat ambiguous), but obviously they are not viable for long range rifle stages where targets are out much past 100 yards. However, once or twice a year we do not have access to the High Power range and so everything is inside 80 yards and PCCs become viable.

At Rio Salado we also run monthly submachine gun matches. The format is similar to 3-gun hoser stages, with a mix of paper and reactive steel. Our rules also permit PCCs in a "semi-auto" division, including .30 Carbine (you can download the rules here). Indeed, at the 2010 AZ State Subgun Match a semi-auto shooter came in a close second place to a subgunner. I've always believed that a semi-auto can beat a full-auto in most areas of performance, all other things being equal.

Lastly, at Rio Salado we run a twice-monthly .22LR tactical carbine match. All steel, and more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

With the price of rifle ammo today, a cheaper-to-shoot long gun format makes a lot of sense for close-range matches. IMHO a PCC is preferred to a .22LR due to reliability concerns. I'd like to see more PCC matches.

Edited July 5, 2011 by StealthyBlagga

[bigfish]

I think that a pcc sidematch is a great idea. Alot of people have them so why have some fun with them? If its like any other gun used at a match alot of the people that have a pcc would be more then happy to lone thiers out to someone that doesnt.

[JimmyZip]

I like the idea. These little carbines are a hoot to shoot! It's great because of the low noise, high accuracy, and negligible recoil. More shooting is a good thing in my book. Cheaper than rifle calibers too..

[ArmdCtzn]

I would love to see more PCC full-auto matches. Unfortunately many ranges don't allow full-auto, but maybe they could be talked into allowing it for matches only.

At the outlaw matches that I run, I allow PCC to compete, but require more shots on the

paper targets, 2As or 3 anywhere.

[Solscud007]

I apologize for digging this up, but I rather not start a new topic since this one is already here.

I live in NY state. I am waiting for my pistol license. I cant even touch a pistol in NY state. So no chance for me to practice or compete in pistol matches. I was fortunate to find a local club, NWRA-NY, that is open minded. I compete in the Action Pistol matches with my KRISS Vector carbine. For those who are not familiar with the KRISS Vector, it is a 45 acp carbine.

I limit my self to prebans and 10 rd mags due to NY law. Also I look at the matches as great practice. The need to reload so often just helps me build up muscle memory. I do have a Preban with 17+ extension to give me a full 30 rounds but I feel like I am cheating myself. I am not really competing against anyone. I have only had two pistol carbine competitors against me. Hi-point 995 in 9mm and a Beretta Storm in 9mm. Both of them were not really into the tactical/competitive mindset.

Anyway I have difficulty finding places that allow PCC in their matches. But at least I found one place.

[dcloudy777]

I never even thought about places where you can't have pistols... good point.

DanO

[Solscud007]

Ok so to preface this post. I am waiting for my Pistol License. I dont know when or if I will get it. So I am thinking what can I do in the meantime?

Since I shoot a KRISS Vector at my local Pistol action matches. During the matches I start at low ready and raise the carbine up to my cheek and fire. I would rather simulate a pistol to hone the pistol skills that I lack.

I plan to use a blackhawk stealth weapon catch to "holster" the Vector to my side.

Here is an example.

http://www.patriotoutfitters.com/img/products/11300/11311.jpg

Then I got to thinking, why not remove the stock entirely? The KRISS Vector without the stock is 26.5" So it is still legal as a rifle. Couldn't I engage stockless and there by get closer approximation of shooting a pistol while remaining legal in NY?

Do you think having a stock less PCC rifle (that is still within the legality as a rifle by definition) would be allowed in multigun matches? I suppose it is at the discretion of the match organizers.

This way the benefits of the carbine are negated by not using the stock? It would level the playing field more. Granted PCC competitors should be in their own class. I know for my matches, the guys put me in my own carbine class/divison so I can do whatever I want.

Issues have come up with engagement of targets. Such as strong hand and weak hand engagements. As I said before, I treat the matches as an opportunity to practice and learn. I dont normally shoot weak side. So I force myself to at least transition shoulders and shoot the Vector off my left shoulder. I suck at it haha. But I am trying it. The other PCC competitors ignore this and just keep shooting from their strong side. I feel like that is not in good sportsman like manner. Even though im not directly competing with the Pistol shooters, why should I take it easy? Same with required mag changes. In some instances, the PCC shooters would not mag change. But I do.

Other things we dont do is having our hands up or having to face away from the targets, rotate and draw. For safety reasons we just face the targets and start from low ready.

[CJW]

The York, PA Izaak Walton club has used an "Outlaw Open" division for some of their multigun matches that is, pretty much, "anything goes." In particular, they allow PCC for any pistol targets, and there's usually a few people/teams shooting that way.

Of course, the PCCs seem disproportionately to be outfitted with suppressors, and when you finish a stage with a gun wearing a can, it can make things a little tough on the shot timer.

[StealthyBlagga]

We recently started running a Tactical Shotgun & Pistol Caliber Carbine match here at Rio Salado. Those interested in doing something similar at their range are welcome to use our Match Rules as a starting point - they are based on SMM3G Time Plus Multi-Gun rules.

Here is a video from one of our matches:

[Solscud007]

Very interesting. Thanks.

[ramairthree]

Our local club does USPSA type matches monthly.

They are not officially counting matches.

I have had in the back of my mind for a while that the same set ups could be used for PCC courses.

They would be fun, and it might draw in more shooters that otherwise would not do action pistol let alone three gun.

The key to our gunning future and rights gets stronger with more people buying and shooting.

I heard there is a group in the state that does zombie shooting matches. (I guess only head shots count)

A lot of guys scoff at that. Then you think about it,

and if it is fun and draws more adults,

plus gets kids that want to go vs. playing video games I would have to say it is a good thing.

[Racer377]

I would love something like this. I don't currently own a PCC, but would buy one if there were semi-regularly scheduled games I could play with it. They're really a hoot to shoot.

[Langenator]

Other than a little extra safety check on any metal targets due to the slightly higher velocity of rounds coming out of the PCC, I don't see why you couldn't.

I've got a 9mm AR that would be great fun to shoot in something like that.

[WRanger]

Earlier this century Michigan had a well-developed PCC scene. Several clubs had scheduled events and a well-run state championship was held for a number of years. Maybe some clubs still run the matches. Patrick Sweeney wrote about it (we shot various USPSA/ICORE matches with him regularly), as well as (if I remember correctly) my friend Roy Neal. Great matches, great fun!

Undoubtedly, there are still people around there who could provide excellent ideas and counsel how to design and run good PCC matches. Wish I could convince my new friends, here, to run PCC, but our monthly schedule is filled up with equally fun events.

WR

[mscott]

I plan on running my Mech Tech carbine unit this weekend at a multigun match. There's no doubt I'm giving up some to the AR15, but it's just for fun anyway. Max range is 100 yards and the 9mm is fine for that. Accuracy isn't the best with groups being 3" at 100 yards, but will be adequate. Running with my G34 I'll only have 1 type of magazine on by belt for either gun.