What's up with Limiting Divisions at Major Matches?

[StealthyBlagga]

I think on balance I would rather go back towards a single prize table with ranking based on division points. This would be the easiest way to take the richness of the prize table out of the equipment selection decision making process... folks could shoot whatever equipment they enjoy shooting without wondering whether their prize table was going to suck.

[RiggerJJ]

I think the best suggestion I have heard so far is the paper certificate (or plaque) recoginzing best in division,but the prize table in order of finish. Throw open in the mix as well. There will still be some TI and HM shooters that finish near the top and probably get a better prize of the table by finishing 25th overall anyway.

I'm not sure where you got that idea, I have been reading this thread and don't remember anyone saying to put everyone in an "overall" division and prize it out that way. Divisions must be kept seperate.

Percent of finish in each specific division, with one prize table. Its simple and doesn't screw smaller divisions or reward larger divisions by meer participation. So a 4 division match will have 4 100%s, then down from there. a 95% in Limited goes before a 94% in HM, etc, etc...

but remember, these precentages are calculated by comparing (for exmaple) a Limited shooter's score to the Limited winner's score, an Open shooter's score to the Open winner, etc... and then everyone is stacked up in order.

jj

[GorillaTactical]

Just curious....what happens if the best BLANK (insert division) shooter doesn't do well and so all the shooters in that division are close to one another in terms of percentage (mostly within 20%)...does that mean that even though skill would be less overall in that division, and they shot a much poorer match, those guys would all get to go up to the prize table before the tac optics guys who shoot 75% of Daniel Horner?

I'm not critiquing anybody or anything, just curious if that's what's being suggested...

Obviously it wouldn't be an issue if the top shooter in that division does well which is normally the case.....but if he were to shoot poor.....yaaaaaaaaa

Edited June 20, 2011 by GorillaTactical

[Wakal]

Actually, I did

Everyone in one heap, that also fixes the flaw in your "percentage by Division" plan: Hard to compare anyone as a percentage of Horner in T/O on one side vs. anyone against Bob The Lucky in Tac/Iron (assuming Trapr doesn't show up ). One heap, one set of scores. Hand out certificates of some nominal value to the high gear challenged/best beard/shortest/whatever, and run the table in order of finish.

ONE set of scoring software, no adding/merging/unmerging/six hours to score, just one flat file

Alex

[Lead-Head]

I think the best suggestion I have heard so far is the paper certificate (or plaque) recoginzing best in division,but the prize table in order of finish. Throw open in the mix as well. There will still be some TI and HM shooters that finish near the top and probably get a better prize of the table by finishing 25th overall anyway.

I'm not sure where you got that idea, I have been reading this thread and don't remember anyone saying to put everyone in an "overall" division and prize it out that way. Divisions must be kept seperate.

Percent of finish in each specific division, with one prize table. Its simple and doesn't screw smaller divisions or reward larger divisions by meer participation. So a 4 division match will have 4 100%s, then down from there. a 95% in Limited goes before a 94% in HM, etc, etc...

but remember, these precentages are calculated by comparing (for exmaple) a Limited shooter's score to the Limited winner's score, an Open shooter's score to the Open winner, etc... and then everyone is stacked up in order.

jj

I got it from Alex earlier in this discussion post:

"Say up front: This is a "Tac Scope" match; no other Divisions are recognized. You are welcome to shoot Irons and perhaps be recognized for top 'irons' or top 'heavy' with a ONLY a piece of paper BUT you will be scored and walk the table in strict order of finish; no special "jump the line" for top gear-challenged, best left handed turnip twaddler, best beard, or what-not. Or, state that this is an Open match. Anything goes, period, with strict order of finish (actually, I'd love to shoot a match like that...)"

He said it more colorfully than I did. I like this idea.

[RiggerJJ]

I think the best suggestion I have heard so far is the paper certificate (or plaque) recoginzing best in division,but the prize table in order of finish. Throw open in the mix as well. There will still be some TI and HM shooters that finish near the top and probably get a better prize of the table by finishing 25th overall anyway.

I'm not sure where you got that idea, I have been reading this thread and don't remember anyone saying to put everyone in an "overall" division and prize it out that way. Divisions must be kept seperate.

Percent of finish in each specific division, with one prize table. Its simple and doesn't screw smaller divisions or reward larger divisions by meer participation. So a 4 division match will have 4 100%s, then down from there. a 95% in Limited goes before a 94% in HM, etc, etc...

but remember, these precentages are calculated by comparing (for exmaple) a Limited shooter's score to the Limited winner's score, an Open shooter's score to the Open winner, etc... and then everyone is stacked up in order.

jj

I got it from Alex earlier in this discussion post:

"Say up front: This is a "Tac Scope" match; no other Divisions are recognized. You are welcome to shoot Irons and perhaps be recognized for top 'irons' or top 'heavy' with a ONLY a piece of paper BUT you will be scored and walk the table in strict order of finish; no special "jump the line" for top gear-challenged, best left handed turnip twaddler, best beard, or what-not. Or, state that this is an Open match. Anything goes, period, with strict order of finish (actually, I'd love to shoot a match like that...)"

He said it more colorfully than I did. I like this idea.

that's a single-division match. different animal, guess I was outa line (off topic). But to be clear I don't support having a multi-divison match and scoring it heads up...

Not that I think a single divison match is a good idea because I think everyone should be able to play. If you are going to expend the time, the effort and energy to put on a match, why not let everyone play?

And no, I don't think a guy who excels in one division (I'm "best" at XYZ Division) would necessarily be able to excel as well in another...

jj

[Tyler Payne]

If you look at percentage gaps between divisions, you will see that it is not even across the board. Last year at RM3G, 2nd place in HI was at 90%. 2nd in LI was at 97%. 2nd in O was 89% and in HS and LS was at 85%. But the 5th place in O was only seperated by 18% vs. HI with a 40% difference. That doesn't seem fair to all the shooters because 1 or 2 people blow the curve and screw the rest of the shooters. It seems like at a match where scores are combined it would benefit to shoot a different division (such as open in this case) just so you can get better prizes. If I were shooting HI, why would I go to this match where if I blew one stage and drop 4 places, I end up being at 97th vs. 5th in my division? We have divisions to keep shooters seperate and see where we place against the shooters in our division.

[Bryan 45]

Call me crazy, but I've been scared of anything having to do w/ CHANGE since the '08 presidential election.

How about we just encourage MDs to continue recognizing TO, Open, T1x and HM? I would even wager that if 20 shooters contacted the MD at the Arkansas match and said "I will shoot HM if you recognize the division" they would add it. (I won't be one of them though, because I'm not allowed back in Arkansas after an unfortunate incident at the Piggly Wiggly.)

[Brian Payne]

I like the idea of the seperate divisions = seperate prize tables. I know it is harder for the match directors, but to do the prize table any other way is unfair. The concept is sound, but the application will never be correct unless the top shooters in each division are of equal ability over the second place shooter, and third place shooter, and so on.

I am not attending one of the best Major 3-gun matches this year because of this exact topic. (I am REALLY regretting this decision right now but that is another story).

I do like the idea that everyone is still searching for the best way of doing things, but sometimes leaving well enough alone isn't such a bad idea either.

I personally think one of the best ideas to come along for a 3-gun match was the Ironman where there were two seperate matches running in the same week. I don't envy the match director or RO's on that one, but they seemed to make it work.

Bryan, as for that little tiff at the Piggly Wiggly - Restraining Orders only last for a year!

[bigbrowndog]

call me cynical but, our sport is never going to be NASCAR, or tour de france, or bowling, or olympics, or NFL, etc.

IPSC is hopefully finding this out now, but I doubt it!! Large cash purses are not going to save us. Large quantity participation will, and one does not lead to the other, for our sport!!

As for prize tables, I kinda liked RM3G, and look forward to this year.

trapr

[Stlhead]

I like prizes, but I like shooting the matches more. For me the ultimate prize is shooting the match.

[dillon]

Charles, I suspect that requiring sponsors to pay in cash instead of merchandise would result in far fewer sponsors.While I don't know how others in the industry work, but we have a budget for match sponsorship. Product goes a lot further than cash does, and it puts our equipment in the hands of our customers.

At last years RM3G, Denise and JJ did a great job of shuffling the competitors of the various divisions into a single table. The only drawback to the single table is that it now takes much longer to get everyone through the prize table. The tradeoff is it is much easier for the match officials to set up a single prize table than to try to divide the prizes up into multiple equitable tables.

[smokshwn]

When match directors ask a sponsor for a GIFT they better think twice about requiring anything or else all they will have is a match with no prize table. When you are begging you better not be too choosy/

There are those who give gifts and those who are sponsors. Individual sports like professional golf, tennis, bowling, even horseshoes do not feature a prize table. We will never take our sport to the next level unless we provide cash paybacks and to do so from only the match fees will result in entry fees too high for most shooters.

There is a notion that current sponsors will not pay money and I would assume that some of the current sponsors might not. But if the success of Three Gun Nation tells us anything, it is that sponsors are willing to pay for increaed exposure and the current commercial supporters recognize that this exposure is worth far more than just donation of product.

Reread my post, I never said that there are not a few sponsors that may pay $$$ for exposure. I said that if match directors REQUIRE it there will be very little given.

[Charles Bond]

To be clear, if MDs require cash for sponsorship there will be a reduction in amount sponsors are willing to give and I suspect that MDs would only be able to get about 25% of the cash they might otherise secure in product. And I know that there are sponsors who will refuse to give cash........at least in the beginning. But after a couple of years if the matches stick together, this will change and the sponsors who participate now will all return to the flock. It is in their economic interest to do so. FN has advanced their name by a country mile by putting cash on the line and others will follow but they will follow more quickly if the matches move past the status quo.

Sometimes we need to take a step or two back before we can step forward to get closer to a goal. My sense is that this is one of those situations where we should make some short term sacrifice to achieve longer term goals.

[Doug H.]

To be clear, if MDs require cash for sponsorship there will be a reduction in amount sponsors are willing to give and I suspect that MDs would only be able to get about 25% of the cash they might otherise secure in product. And I know that there are sponsors who will refuse to give cash........at least in the beginning. But after a couple of years if the matches stick together, this will change and the sponsors who participate now will all return to the flock. It is in their economic interest to do so. FN has advanced their name by a country mile by putting cash on the line and others will follow but they will follow more quickly if the matches move past the status quo.

Sometimes we need to take a step or two back before we can step forward to get closer to a goal. My sense is that this is one of those situations where we should make some short term sacrifice to achieve longer term goals.

Next time you run a match feel free to ask for all cash from sponsors and see how things turn out. I'm going to stay with accepting what the sponsors have to offer and being thankfull.

Doug

[Charles Bond]

Doug and that is exactly the point. There is no uniting force in 3 gun and unless one arises, three gunners will be shooting for prizes 25 years from now.

[Doug H.]

Having attended almost every big 3 gun match west of the Mississippi, and all the USPSA Multigun Nationals since 2006, I would have to say that the majority of independent outlaw matches have much better prize tables then the largest practical shooting organization in the United States. If USPSA can't come up with a better prize table then an outlaw match I don't see how a uniting force would improve our situation unless there were tens of thousands more 3 gun shooters.

Some very big matches can ask for cash and get it but most of us running matches will have a hard time getting much more than product, but considering the number of competitors, I am overwhelmed by the outporing of support from our Sponsors. Our little match out in Oregon has gotten over $20,000 worth of product and gift certificates. If we had asked for cash only I doubt we gotten much of anything. You need a huge following like golf or bowling to get big cash payouts.

Speaking of cash payouts, I really don't want to see that happen. If we become a professional sport it is going to take the fun out of this for a lot of people. How many average joes you see competing at the Masters or other professional sporting event? NONE! As it is getting into some of the more popular 3 gun matches is getting to be next to impossible. Be carefull what you wish for, it just may happen.

Doug

[Bryan 45]

Call me crazy, but I don't want to win cash. I can work additional hours, sell some junk, or pick up aluminum cans if I want some cash. However, when sponsors donate product for the prize tables, I have the opportunity to win things that I may never be willing to spend the money to buy.

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

I shot my first major 3 Gun at the Texas Multigun Championship in April. I was thrilled to finish above someone else! Being on a squad with no one that I knew made it even more enjoyable as I was able to observe how they approached the stages and talk with them to understand their methodology. I considered taking home some prizes as a bonus. I've got a slot at the RM3G in August and am hoping to be squaded with a couple of the better known 3 gunners so I can learn from them and share ideas and thoughts.

[Lead-Head]

One benefit of a cash prize would be that my wife knows what cash IS. When I brought home $$$ from FB3G a couple of years ago, it made her look at my 3-gun addiction in a different way.

When I bring home a AR barrel or other gun part, her first questions is "what are you going to do with that and how much will it cost?"

A mix of cash and prizes would be nice. Its worked for the Price is Right for decades.

Or, match sponsors could just pay for the match set-up and staff, and only charge me $50 to shoot. If it were a good match I would be OK with a very limited, or no prize table if the entry fee was low.

I am ultimately grateful for anything sponsors put up to make these matches happen. The only issue I whine like a baby about is when there is no TI division included.

[Charles Bond]

And I share the thoughts outlined by Lead-Head. If a sponsor donates cash that is money that can be used to pay for the match administration and be considered part of the rewards for an individual shooter doing well. When a sponsor gives prizes only, that benefit only attaches to the shooter who picks it up off of the prize table. We can grow out sport by adding more shooters and matches and best do that by keeping entry fees low. The top ten are going to benefit as well as more shooters mean more larger matches and more potential to win prizes.

And Doug I do not disagree with you that USPSA may not be in the best position to unify 3 gun.

[mpeltier]

I was going to keep out of this discusion because it seems to be drifting a bit...but, if the prize table was eliminated for a cash pay-out it would probably kill many of the big matches. I will be honest and say that even though I am there first and foremost for the shooting, the prize table and allure of what I may win is a big part of the draw for me to invest the time and money to attend. A match without prizes would be like christmas with-out presents. I enjoy seeing what others win as well as what I manage to snag. Its nice too see all that Booty (thats for you Bryan). If you loose sponsors and keep some at only 25% cash of what you would otherwise get in merchandise, i personally would not invest the time and money neccessary to travel to a match and take home a $50.00 check to watch Taran Butler or Daniel Horner run off with the real money. If it came down to this i would buy another boat and start doing Big Game fishing tournaments again. Just my penny and a half.

As far as limiting divisions in a match, thats for the guy running the match to decide. If ya don't like it...dont go.

Edited June 27, 2011 by mpeltier

[Bryan 45]

Mark, what topics don't drift when you get a bunch of 3 gunners talking????

Maybe that's why we like shooting 3 gun better than 1 gun- attention deficit?

[mpeltier]

Mark, what topics don't drift when you get a bunch of 3 gunners talking????

Maybe that's why we like shooting 3 gun better than 1 gun- attention deficit?

Thanks Bryan, this somehow reminded me of the 3rd and most important element of the big matches. That is the friendships we build on the journey. without all three their would be nothing. So the real 3 in 3 gun is not Rifle, pistol shotgun, its Friendship, shooting, prizetable. .........squirrel....

[ninemmbill]

Prize tables really put match directors in a bind. Everyone wants something different or has their own opinion as to how it should be run.

I am not in favor of cash prizes. I think we are very fortunate to get the level of support we do from sponsors. Multi-gun has grown so much that it seems there are now big matches every month. And there are a relatively small number of companies involved in the sport to ask for donated prizes or gift certificates. Asking them for cash puts a lot of pressure on sponsors, it is much easier for them to donate product or gift certificates.

My level of shooting doesn't allow me to go to the bigger matches expecting to win a crowded Tac optics division. I do go looking to have a good time shooting, seeing old friends, and meeting new people. So, I always appreciate a random draw table. When match fees are on the expensive side, I like being able to pick up something at a a prize table.