Lead-Head Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I have a question. I have seen announcements for 3-gun matches lately that are limited in the types of divisions that will be recognized. The Rockcastle AR-15 match will very likley be one of, if not the largest, 3-gun event ever, and yet it is limited to tac-optics and open. (yes I know you can still shoot any equipment you want in Tac-optics...not the same) Recently I read the string announcing the AR sectional, it is not recognizing HM, citing not enough interest. Are we getting to a point where we have so many Tac-optics shooters, and so many sponsors interested in this division, that match organizers would rather just not bother with divisons like HM and irons? Are we headed toward a point where we will only have one division, similar to tac optics? I have never been involved in organizing a match, so I am not being critical, but if a match is going to be considered a MAJOR match, should they not recognize each division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Match organization tends to be like running a business. If you have a product that you can not sell or sell very little of it, you close it out and stock something else. Some of the leading iron shooters wanted to allow 1x optics in their division. That happened and there was no real increase in the division. Heavy metal just has no growth and never had much of a following. Match organizers face the prospect of fronting significant amounts of money to host a match. Even with a not for profit match, if the match is not full, they are at risk. The AR15 match filled in about a day which means that there is a overwhelming demand for the match and the MD knowing the match is full does not have to worry about covering his match expenses and can go on and focus entirely on running the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Here's an easy way to even out the matches. One giant prize table like there was at the LaRue Tactical Texas Multigun. As long as you reward people for joining one division, you'll see one division grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 This is one discussion that comes to mind when discussing shifting favor to other divisions than TO: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=121761&st=0&p=1377016&hl=3-gun%20nation&fromsearch=1entry1377016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 I think, by cutting out certain divisions the match can miss out on some of those die hard shooters, that may not be at the top of the pack, but are going to travel 1000 miles to participate. We all know folks that travel several matches a year, and shoot HM or irons, and that is their thing. If their division gets dropped, they may get dropped with it. Seems like a shame. I recently shot KY State Multigun where about 1/4 of the shooters were tac-irons. Several were relatively new shooters, but this match had a random prize table so shooting irons had no impact on what you took home. At an order-of-finish table there is not much reason to shoot HM of TI unless you plan on winning. Prize table booty is not a motivator for shooting these divisions. The biggest motivator for more shooters in TI this year may be the divison $$$ put up by 3GN, not the 1x optic rule change. Some top shooters have moved into this divison at point series matches this year and put down some amazing runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I personally would rather a MD not recognize a division than be lazy and not take the time to set up target presentation so that ALL competitors have a fair and even chance at seeing and hitting a target. As well as trying to compensate for a prize table based on number of entrants, prize table equality is very difficult to accomplish as it is, but to say that its fair based on numbers rather than competition is not a fair statement. There are enough matches now than ever before, so if you want to bypass a match due to "your" division not being recognized you still have ample matches to choose from. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Here's an easy way to even out the matches. One giant prize table like there was at the LaRue Tactical Texas Multigun. As long as you reward people for joining one division, you'll see one division grow. And I happen to agree with this approach. But there are lots of folks who do not agree with random draw prize tables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) At LaRue it wasn't random but the process was to call one person from each division 1st OPN, 1st TO, 1st LIM, 1st HM, 2nd OPN etc. Edited June 19, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 At LaRue it wasn't random but the process was to call one person from each division 1st OPN, 1st TO, 1st LIM, 1st HM, 2nd OPN etc. And that is the worst possible way to do it. Say you have 100 in tac optics and 10 in HM. The last place person in HM wins a better prize than the person who was shooting 90% in tac optic just because of the division they shot. Do you want people shooting divisions because they shoot them well or just to get a good prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) At LaRue it wasn't random but the process was to call one person from each division 1st OPN, 1st TO, 1st LIM, 1st HM, 2nd OPN etc. And that is the worst possible way to do it. Say you have 100 in tac optics and 10 in HM. The last place person in HM wins a better prize than the person who was shooting 90% in tac optic just because of the division they shot. Do you want people shooting divisions because they shoot them well or just to get a good prize. Whoops, I think they actually did it by overall points based on division winners once they got the top 3 of each division out of the way. That way the person who placed 10/10th in HM with a 30% gets his prize near the guy who placed 70/100th in TO with 30% - but from one giant table that is not separated by division. This way, the non-TO shooters don't get disregarded. Edited June 19, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Allowing 1X into Limited looks like it has increased participation in the Division. From the two matches I normally shoot: SMM3G 2011 35 2010 25 2009 12 USPSA Nationals 2011 N/A 2010 17 2009 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Some of the leading iron shooters wanted to allow 1x optics in their division. That happened and there was no real increase in the division. Sorry, that is not what I'm seeing. I'm actually seeing decent numbers in Limited. In fact I think the Midwest 3-Gun had more in Limited than they did in Open. What are you basing this statement on? Besides, it has been less than 1 year since that change went into effect at any major match. I think it's a little early to be making any statements about participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) I did not care for the LaRue prize table this year...poorly thought out, and poorly executed. It went through the top three per Division, then through the top ten percent, THEN in straight (combined) order of finish. I'd rather have a random draw prize table. Actually, I'd rather have a fifty dollar match fee and no damn prize table, but I seem to be in the minority Prize tables laid out either 'stacked' to one Division or another, or combined in strange and bizarre ways, seem to foster Division shopping. One of my top tier friends has told me straight out at several major matches that while he would like to compete (and win) Open, he shoots Tac Scope because the prizes five deep are far better than winner/Open. As I think through this (as I'm typing, of course, I type slow but think even slower), perhaps the various "real" (as opposed to "crap" (read: USPSA)) 3-Gun matches need to just man up and call it like it is...like LaRue did a few years ago. Say up front: This is a "Tac Scope" match; no other Divisions are recognized. You are welcome to shoot Irons and perhaps be recognized for top 'irons' or top 'heavy' with a ONLY a piece of paper BUT you will be scored and walk the table in strict order of finish; no special "jump the line" for top gear-challenged, best left handed turnip twaddler, best beard, or what-not. Or, state that this is an Open match. Anything goes, period, with strict order of finish (actually, I'd love to shoot a match like that...) Alex Edited June 19, 2011 by Wakal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Did someone say booty? I tend to think 3 Gun Nation has had more to do w/ the larger number of competitors in Tac-Open (formerly called Tac Iron) and Heavy- rather than the rule change to allow 1x. I also agree w/ Trapr that thankfully we have enough options on what matches we shoot and can base our decisions on their recoginzed rules. (Which for the record, I appreciate and enjoy that matches tailor the rules to suit their needs.) My only concern is that other matches may follow suit in the name of "easier." Edited June 20, 2011 by Bryan 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 So you think it wouldn't matter if you took away 1X sights from Limited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Seems like most folks are shooting Tac/Scope...personally, I think that is because the concept of "Open" makes many new (and quite a few old) shooters piddle their pants, and only a few talented (dedicated? foolish?) souls can run iron sights with anything approaching competence, let alone awe-inspiring mad skilz. So, folks seem to settle on an iron sight pistol, archaic "tuber" shottygun, and a modern rifle Just from shooting and RO'ing various matches, it seems to me that if the "zero magnification" optics are not allowed in Tac/Iron, then folks leave their guns alone (instead of learning how to manfully squint whilst bitching about background colors) and shoot a dot-topped rifle in Tac/Scope. I'd still like to see a pure "Open" match, run what you brung (so to speak)...a "only tac/scope" match, a "only 308 or better" match... The "all irons, all the time" three gun match up at Fort Hood last month was pretty darn entertaining, even if I haven't learned how to squint and bitch (about background colors) correctly Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) Heavy metal is all but dead in the matches I shoot. Limited has some new life, but three gun nation seems to be driving the increases more than the 1x optic. As for the prize tables favoring Tac optics, what is new? Shoot what you like, I like heavy metal, but no one wants to play the game that way, so I will plat the limited game, if that goes to hell then I will move to scope tac and shoot whatever gear I feel like. I like the 1x rule for limited and think it should be allowed in heavy metal as well, and I shoot heavy metal and limited, and did before the 1x rule. Ihave even heard one of my open friends considering shooting in limited because it looks like fun. The open guys use their red dot on the rifle more than they do the scope anyway. Edited June 20, 2011 by Stlhead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 In a more perfect world we would have some prop guns in heavy metal, irons, open and 1x and score the entire match as one division. Make them shoot some revolver and pump shotguns and reload out of a sporting clays bag. But if match sponsors required sponsors to pay for their sponsorships with money instead of product (instead of $2599 of product they would send $500), the notion of a $50 entry fee would indeed be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 actually Charles in a "more perfect world" we wouldn't be having any of these discussions, because it would be perfect everyone here is allowed to set up their match however they want, background contrast or not, iron divisions or not, modern mag fed catastrophic SG or not, (remember alex, I allow them at HPSC and they haven't won anything!!!), if you don't like the way its done then don't attend or try and get the MD to see your side of the argument, its what I try and do all the time. Like Stlhead, I "like" shooting irons, but then I travel overseas to compete and they don't recognize anything but irons and open, so what are you going to shoot at IPSC World 3 gun????? 1x, TacOp, HM, HM Op, guess again!!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 But if match sponsors required sponsors to pay for their sponsorships with money instead of product (instead of $2599 of product they would send $500), the notion of a $50 entry fee would indeed be possible. WRONG! When match directors ask a sponsor for a GIFT they better think twice about requiring anything or else all they will have is a match with no prize table. When you are begging you better not be too choosy/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 When match directors ask a sponsor for a GIFT they better think twice about requiring anything or else all they will have is a match with no prize table. When you are begging you better not be too choosy/ There are those who give gifts and those who are sponsors. Individual sports like professional golf, tennis, bowling, even horseshoes do not feature a prize table. We will never take our sport to the next level unless we provide cash paybacks and to do so from only the match fees will result in entry fees too high for most shooters. There is a notion that current sponsors will not pay money and I would assume that some of the current sponsors might not. But if the success of Three Gun Nation tells us anything, it is that sponsors are willing to pay for increaed exposure and the current commercial supporters recognize that this exposure is worth far more than just donation of product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) "so what are you going to shoot at IPSC World 3 gun????? 1x, TacOp, HM, HM Op, guess again!!!!" Trapr I am rather confident that we agree that 3 gun matches are way too good to let IPSC muddle around with it (my apology to those 2 or 3 shooters who really believe that mixing slugs and buckshot and birdshot on a single stage is not desirable). IMO we are having about 8 World 3 gun matches in the US each year since I note that these matches are open to anyone whether they hail from Finland or live in Alabama. Edited June 20, 2011 by Charles Bond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Trapr I am rather confident that we agree that 3 gun matches are way too good to let IPSC muddle around with it (my apology to those 2 or 3 shooters who really believe that mixing slugs and buckshot and birdshot on a single stage is not desirable). AMEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 All the major 3 gun matches are not only full, but have waiting lists. What we need are more matches so that people have more opportunity to participate. There is plenty of room to experiment with different match formats, if you want a match ran a particular way then step up and put one on. Lets see some of this concern for the future of our sport focused on making a difference (or trying to). Less internet banter, and more shooting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 I think the best suggestion I have heard so far is the paper certificate (or plaque) recoginzing best in division,but the prize table in order of finish. Throw open in the mix as well. There will still be some TI and HM shooters that finish near the top and probably get a better prize of the table by finishing 25th overall anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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