BDH Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 YOU show up at the line and are given LAMR. You load your gun, holster, and after a little bit of shifting around, stand perfectly still (IOW, it appears to the RO that you are ready to go). The RO notices that you are not in the correct start position (your feet are not against the marks... your hands are not in the correct position... whatever...). At this point the RO has two choices..... 1) Say nothing. Eventually, you will turn and look at the RO with that 'why haven't you given me the Are You Ready command' look.... 2) Coach you into the correct start position with something like 'feet against marks please'... I would love to know shooters feelings on this as if we (range staff) take the first choice and let you stand there, things slow down, and we break your concentration anyway (once you finally turn around to see why the h*ll we did not start you). Of course the flip side is that us coaching you into the right position means that we are now using non-standard range commands (not really commands, but you know what I mean), and we could break your concentration by coaching you into the proper position. What's an RO to do? How should we be handling this? Or to make it a personal thing... how should I handle these situations when you come to my stage this season? (I know, this should have been a poll question, but consider me 'poll challenged....') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLISH LOCK Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 i normally remind the shooter " the start posistion is " i dont think that is coaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Either way your concentration in going to be off. I would rather the RO point out the correct start position, but ONLY after enough time has passed that he or she is sure that I am not going to assume it on my own. Just standing there waiting is not only going to through off my concentration, but it will make me feel like even more of an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 (current USPSA 14th edition) 8.3.1 seems to make it the shooters responsibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 I would say "When you are ready, please assume the start position," if they don't assume it after a reasonable period of time. They generally either ask for more time, or ask what the start position is. If someone gave me lip about breaking their, concentration, I would reply something to the effect, "Would you like to continue or would you like to unload and show clear, and you can shoot when you are ready." Life is too short to let ignoramuses get under your skin, just be polite and move on to the next shooter who understands the COF and the start position. Maybe they will pay attention during the walk through next time As a stage RO for a big match I always demonstrate what is accepable during the walk through (for the sake of "trouble makers") Less headaches demonstrating it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted April 13, 2004 Author Share Posted April 13, 2004 (current USPSA 14th edition) 8.3.1 seems to make it the shooters responsibility? Kyle, agreed, but the question is 'how do you want me to handle it, if you do not assume the correct start position'? Do you want me to wait until you figure it out, or talk you into it? Life is too short to let ignoramuses get under your skin, just be polite and move on to the next shooter who understands the COF and the start position. Maybe they will pay attention during the walk through next time As a stage RO for a big match I always demonstrate what is accepable during the walk through (for the sake of "trouble makers") Less headaches demonstrating it. L2S, trust me, I am with you and always demonstrate what is acceptable. However, I have heard comments come back on that approach as well. Some of this is certainly 'you can't please all the people all the time' but I do think the good range staff try to. Just looking for the general read from the group here...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Actually, Brian, you left one option off: Say nothing about the improper start position, proceed normally, and after the range is clear, inform the competitor that you are assessing him one procedural penalty for failing to comply with a procedure specified in the course briefing, per 10.1.1. and 10.1.4.3. Before you guys all burn me to a crisp, let me say that I'm not advocating this approach, and never have. I consider it to be beating the shooter over the head with the rule book. But, a strict and literal interpretation of the rules would certainly allow for this, and some think it's the right thing to do. Why? Because you can't guarantee that everyone is getting the same treatment--being re-informed of the proper start position--in every instance. (I disagree with this position, mainly because I think that paying attention to the details is what makes the difference between being a timer holder and a good RO.) After all, the competitor should have been paying attention to your stirring recitation of the stage briefing, and since you shouldn't be asking if he has any questions or understands the course, it's his tough luck, right? (Note tongue firmly planted in cheek here.) Seriously, if I were the RO, I'd remind you of the start position and start over with the range commands. As a shooter, I'd much prefer that the RO tell me that I'm in the wrong position, than let me go ahead and ding me for it afterwards. Heck, it doesn't even break my concentration, but if you've seen me shoot, you'd know that's not a problem.... Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 As the shooter, I should put my hand on my gun as an indication to the RO that I'm not ready. And I would expect a repeat of "Make Ready" if I'm starting to hold up the show. If the RO repeats Make Ready then I'll know I'm not in the correct start position and then I can ask what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I'm happy with the RO coaching me into the correct start position rather than just letting me stand there. With my short attention span it doesn't take long to regain my concentration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I've heard so much about range commands that it sounds like we could all become range command nazi's. I think we have to use the standard range commands, but certainly we can be helpful. Breaking someones "concentration" by asking them to (helping them) assume the starting position is not nearly as distracting as letting them stand there till they have to turn around. If this creates undue stress on the part of some shooters then they are welcome to shoot later in the squad with the proper time for their mantra. It strikes me that if we are that worried about breaking someones "concentration" with anything other than the standard range commands, we should also stop the school of RO's who advocate yelling "trigger" or "muzzle" at a shooter during the course of fire. We know (hope) they are concentrating then. I think in these cases the proper command would be "stop" followed by a DQ if the infraction has been committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Amen Paul. I think everybody here has the same idea. Try to wait assuming they are just going through their mental game and will assume the correct positioin when they are ready. I think or hope it will become obvious to the RO when the shooter doesn't know the correct position. If you try to coach and the shooter says "I, know" or something like that then they were probably taking to long anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Troy, My read is...as the RO, you can't start the shooter unless they are in the required "ready position". 8.3.1, and 8.2.x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted April 14, 2004 Author Share Posted April 14, 2004 Actually, Brian, you left one option off:Say nothing about the improper start position, proceed normally, and after the range is clear, inform the competitor that you are assessing him one procedural penalty for failing to comply with a procedure specified in the course briefing, per 10.1.1. and 10.1.4.3. Troy, I hear you but how do we deal with this under 8.3.1 which says 'The competitor shall then assume the required ready postion. At this point, the Range Officer shall proceed'. Considering that, I can NOT start him since he/she is not in the 'required ready position'??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I hate non-standard range commands with an unrivaled passion. However, this isn't (in my opinion) the same as, "If the shooter understands the course of fire you may jump into the box unbag load and make ready." I want the RO to tell me, "Toes against box", etc. Heck, I have already screwed up and waiting until I figure it out will only make matters worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 When I clicked on this post I was surprised to see the number of responses that were in it. First, to answer the question, I would definitly prefer the RO simply say what the start position is assuming I am in the wrong start position. To be perfectly honest 9 times out of 10 I don't pay attention to that piece of the stage and I generally end up having to ask anyhow. If its a big match and the competitor is paying any kind of attention to either the course book or the other shooters s/he is going to know what the start position is. If they don't assume the position and the RO were to just wait - I think we'd both feel like dumbasses. I would advise the shooter. I would ask to be advised by the RO. If it breaks a rule in the rule book than so be it. I just think its the right thing to do. Like someone wrote earlier - no matter how you slice the pie your concentration is broken. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I'm all about fairness, rules, propper range commands, etc. and having said that I'll say this: The lesson that sticks with me most from the RO courses that I've taken (level 1 from Jay, level 2 from Perry) is that "the RO's main job is to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire". If a shooter assumes what looks like a wrong ready position, I think it's only right for the RO to assist him through the stage by repeating the correct start position. If my concentration was broken by an RO assisting me in that manner, then I would make sure that I had my stuff together next time so as not to force the next RO to do the same. Bottom line is, I agree with the general consensus that reiterating the correct start position is the lesser of the evils. Thanks for ROing and keep up the good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I would want to be told and if RO'ing would then repeat "Are you ready" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I prefer that the RO tell me if I'm not in the correct position to begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I (as a shooter) make it part of my “ritual” to ask the RO, e.g. “hands at side”? Or “toes at the front of the box”? That way we BOTH know for sure and can relax and get on with it. Should I fail to do that, a gentle reminder from the RO is always appreciated. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 It strikes me that if we are that worried about breaking someones "concentration" with anything other than the standard range commands, we should also stop the school of RO's who advocate yelling "trigger" or "muzzle" at a shooter during the course of fire. We know (hope) they are concentrating then. I think in these cases the proper command would be "stop" followed by a DQ if the infraction has been committed. Troy, can I ask for a reshoot "if" an RO yells finger or muzzle while I'm shooting. This would throw my concentration off much more than any discussion before the course begins. This practice may even be dangerous if the shooter gets starttled and turns uprange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 My preference goes to the RO telling me I'm in the wrong start position: I may have been distracted by so many thoughts that I prefer having someone pointing out to me the right starting position (provided he/she does it the polite way... ). It's all a matter of efficiency: the RO and the whole match can't wait those 10/15 minutes of complete silence and stillness until the shooters finally realize they are doing something wrong. Troy, as Flex and Brian have all pointed out, according to IPSC rulebook you can't start a competitor who's not in the required start position. According to rule 8.3.1: "Load And Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire". Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed. until the competitor has assumed the required start position, the RO is not allowed to proceed with the commands sequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james h Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 As an RO I just wait until they turn and look , most of them cotton on pretty quick. As a shooter I pay attention to the briefing! if they cannot remember the start position then frankly their "concentration" wont help them anyway so if you do want to prompt them i dont have a problem with it but would advise against speaking to soon. not earlier than 30 seconds anyway. when i am on the line in "competitor mode" the RO is pretty much ignored anyway so anything they say is just background noise j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 james, having seen this photo of you brandishing a sledgehammer, I think I'd rather ask the CRO to run you with the timer... I'd better stay far behind and scorekeeping... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 "the RO's main job is to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire". I believe the interpretation of rule 8.3.1 is most likely correct. However, I believe turtle really sums up the spirit of what an RO is trying to do which sometimes you have to remember and try to apply when the rules aren't specific or adequate enough. I have personally been started in the wrong position on a classifier. After the COF the first thing the RO told me was that I got a procedural. I was not happy. I made it a point to "correct" each shooter that I RO'd the rest of that stage into the proper starting position when they were about to start out wrong. Right about the time that I feel I would normally say "Are you ready" if the competitor is not in the proper starting position I tell them, or point, or tap their elbows in order to try to keep the rythm of the start sequence. If I break their concentration they can take as much time as they need to get it back. I personally believe this is much better than starting them off 10 points down in the stage. If the shooter tells me next time they would rather have the procedural than the "coaching" I'll remember and not tell them. So far no one has asked to be on that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I have personally been started in the wrong position on a classifier. After the COF the first thing the RO told me was that I got a procedural. SR, I wonder if USPSA has a totally different rulebook from IPSC regarding the start position issue. Please read Flex, BDH and my response to mactiger: a RO cannot start a competitor if he's not complying with the required start position. This is even more true when applied to a classifier: if the RO lets you commence in a different start position, you shot a different COF from all the rest of the competitors, thus your results cannot be compared with others (sort of apples and oranges comparison). Had I been in your shoes, I'd have fought teeth and nails up to the arb. committee to get a re-shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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