Single Stack + table starts

[juan]

lets take a regular loaded and holsterd start. You are saying at after the start signal that I cannot take my magazines, throw 'em all over the place and reload from where they lay even though at the start signal all magazines started within all division requirements of placement and storage devices. So it's not freestyle.

[KyroWebs]

I still dont think the issue is solved.....define "immediately"

[ac4wordplay]

WOW!

Just wow.

?!@#&^?!

As a CRO... enforcement?

Expect to see my AD tomorrow...

Edited May 1, 2011 by ac4wordplay

[Scott R]

OK permission has been given.

To begin with, JA said his original response was to a general question about shooting while holding a magazine in the other hand. His response was a general one to that question.

My question delt with the specific issue of SS and Production and table starts. Here is the relevant part of my question and his response.

What I understood before the match was this:

Table start, all mags on table, loaded gun. You could shoot and reload to

your hearts content from the start position as the mags on the table are

legal at that point. However, as I understood it, once they left the start

position the mags had to be stored in some manner behind the hipbone to be

division compliant.

The confusion seems to be that folks are reading your correspondence with

the individual to say that you could also just carry the mags in your hand,

and one might also say mouth, arm pit, etc., and not store them behind the

hipbone as required by the division.

We know it has been ruled that a mag in the front pocket is not division

compliant, but it would be OK to carry it in your hand if you wished?

As to the WSB are you saying that you can violate the division equipment

placement of behind the hip bone in a stage with mags on the table start

unless it isn't specified in the WSB?

Sorry to be so dense on this but I am thoroughly confused.

Gary

John's response:

Gary,

No, the WSB does not override the rule, 5.2.4 states in it unless otherwise

prohibited in the WSB a person could carry a mag in their pocket or apparel

and retrieve them as long as the pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D item 12 (subject to the provisions of rule 6.2.5.1).

You are correct in the statement below that as long as they were at the

table or barrel, reload to heart's content, but once you leave, the mag for

Production/Singe Stack divisions must be behind the hip bone. The question

asked did not stipulate division, so the answer was a general answer with

the comment that common sense had to be used, thus, if the division

restricts it, it cannot be done. Of course, if you wanted to carry the mag

in your hand and shoot strong hand, you could have the hand behind the hip

bone. :-)

John

So on with the game.

So if to carry a magazine in your hand in Production or Singlestack it must be behind the hip bone then wouldn't you have to carry it within 2" of the belt in any division?

10 Maximum distance of handgun and

mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt

Handgun and Mags - 2”

Edited to add that I feel like carrying a magazine in your hand should not be subject to any of the equipment position requirements and only posed the question to point out how I feel some of the interpretations are getting a little hard to define or enforce.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Scott R

[badchad]

Forgive me, but I like how IPSC words it.

IPSC Handgun Rules, January 2009, 2nd Edition

5.2.4. Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices should be

carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose, to

reduce the risk of loss during a course of fire.

5.2.4.1. For table starts or similar, after the Start Signal, the competitor

may carry those items anywhere on their person, and this will

not be treated as contravention of Divisional rules.

[pvhendrix]

Forgive me, but I like how IPSC words it.

IPSC Handgun Rules, January 2009, 2nd Edition

5.2.4. Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices should be

carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose, to

reduce the risk of loss during a course of fire.

5.2.4.1. For table starts or similar, after the Start Signal, the competitor

may carry those items anywhere on their person, and this will

not be treated as contravention of Divisional rules.

This sounds most REASONABLE to me.

[Fireant]

+2 to BadChad. It seems like USPSA is trying to screw up 2 divisions at once with these recent issues that were never issues before.

[Skydiver]

OK permission has been given.

To begin with, JA said his original response was to a general question about shooting while holding a magazine in the other hand. His response was a general one to that question.

My question delt with the specific issue of SS and Production and table starts. Here is the relevant part of my question and his response.

What I understood before the match was this:

Table start, all mags on table, loaded gun. You could shoot and reload to

your hearts content from the start position as the mags on the table are

legal at that point. However, as I understood it, once they left the start

position the mags had to be stored in some manner behind the hipbone to be

division compliant.

The confusion seems to be that folks are reading your correspondence with

the individual to say that you could also just carry the mags in your hand,

and one might also say mouth, arm pit, etc., and not store them behind the

hipbone as required by the division.

We know it has been ruled that a mag in the front pocket is not division

compliant, but it would be OK to carry it in your hand if you wished?

As to the WSB are you saying that you can violate the division equipment

placement of behind the hip bone in a stage with mags on the table start

unless it isn't specified in the WSB?

Sorry to be so dense on this but I am thoroughly confused.

Gary

John's response:

Gary,

No, the WSB does not override the rule, 5.2.4 states in it unless otherwise

prohibited in the WSB a person could carry a mag in their pocket or apparel

and retrieve them as long as the pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D item 12 (subject to the provisions of rule 6.2.5.1).

You are correct in the statement below that as long as they were at the

table or barrel, reload to heart's content, but once you leave, the mag for

Production/Singe Stack divisions must be behind the hip bone. The question

asked did not stipulate division, so the answer was a general answer with

the comment that common sense had to be used, thus, if the division

restricts it, it cannot be done. Of course, if you wanted to carry the mag

in your hand and shoot strong hand, you could have the hand behind the hip

bone. :-)

John

So on with the game.

So if to carry a magazine in your hand in Production or Singlestack it must be behind the hip bone then wouldn't you have to carry it within 2" of the belt in any division?

10 Maximum distance of handgun and

mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt

Handgun and Mags - 2”

Edited to add that I feel like carrying a magazine in your hand should not be subject to any of the equipment position requirements and only posed the question to point out how I feel some of the interpretations are getting a little hard to define or enforce.

In a old email exchange I had with John when I was asking for clarification about the front pocket issue, and I asked about other divisions using front shirt pockets. He said those pockets are okay for those divisions. Now that you pointed out the 2" rule, I doubt that a typical front shirt pocket is going to be within 2" of the inner side of the belt, unless the rule is interpreted to mean within 2" of the body in general. If the interpretation is within 2" of the body, and since the hand is part of the body, then I would say that for open/limited/rev divisions its okay to have the magazine/speedloader in the hand, mouth, or armpit. Or is the 2" rule waived by the pockets clause of 5.2.3?

[Thomas H]

My main problem is that I've never thought of my hands as "equipment" before---so the idea that manipulating magazines and such is governed by _equipment placement_ rules makes little sense to me.

And apparently I'm not the only one. DNROI made a comment of "Just because you see someone do it, even GM's, doesn't mean it is allowed, if people are confused about this, that would mean that some of the RO's are as well."

The problem with this is that it doesn't really seem to be just "some" people.

I've included link to a video from the 2009 Area 3 Championships. It shows a brief clip of M. Seeklander and D. Sevigny each holding a magazine in their hand while shooting and moving. I'm not showing this to complain or say they cheated or didn't deserve how they placed----the thing everyone should take from this is simple:

These are top-level competitors who know the rules, and part of their job is to win---following the rules. They thought it was perfectly legal. Not only that, but the rest of that squad (most of the rest of the high-level Production shooters) thought it was perfectly legal.

So did the ROs and CRO on that stage. (Obviously, particularly because multiple shooters did exactly the same thing.)

So did everyone watching---which was quite a few people, as this squad had a number of GMs, and it drew a lot of on-lookers.

I'm thinking that most people don't think that hands are "equipment" and thus once you have a magazine "in-hand," the retention/carrying/holding requirements of 5.2.4 no longer apply. I'm not arguing this is right or wrong (and from DNROI's latest email to me, it is apparently wrong) I'm simply saying in my opinion the vast majority of people think this way.

As such, I strongly suggest that everyone contact their Area Directors to get a BoD clarification of this.

Right now, my understanding of JA's opinion is that things like that aren't legal---so I'm going to shoot stages, and run stages, according to that. And yet, I'm betting that most people _don't_ think that---so what happens if someone on my squad shoots while holding a mag after I've shot it in a way that took more time due to not being able to do the same?

Do I say something and get them kicked to Open? Do I keep my mouth shut and just deal with the fact that I could have done it differently but didn't since I thought we couldn't?

What if I'm the CRO on a stage, and have to tell a good Production shooter that hands are equipment, and as they've just run the stage with a mag forward of the hipbone, they are now in Open?

I'm not really that thrilled about any of the above choices.

I think the BoD needs to have something published regarding this---one way or another. I must admit, I think that categorizing hands as equipment makes no sense, and I'd prefer the ruling to go that way---but that is only my opinion, and we all know how much that means.

No matter what, though---if the ruling is indeed exactly as DNROI has stated it through email, then I'm thinking most people don't know that, and it needs to be announced.

[Singlestack]

Just because someone makes M or GM does not mean they know the rules very well.

[want2race]

I like the IPSC wording. BoD needs to address this ASAP. With SS nationals coming up, it would suck to get bumped to open for a delayed reload on the move, or a shot taken "while reloading".

Production is supposed to be our entry level division, with Single stack being similar but for 1911's. We DON'T need difficult rules to enforce (was my hand behind by hip bone or wasn't it?) for the new shooters. Common sense was mentioned earlier, now we just need to apply it.

Maybe one of the USPSA presidential candidates can make this a campaign issue.

[sperman]

I have a lot of questions I would like answered, but asking them on this thread doesn't seem to be appropriate or productive. I've e-mailed my Area Director. We'll see what she has to say.

[Thomas H]

Just because someone makes M or GM does not mean they know the rules very well.

Quite true. Which is why I said these specific people (what, Sevigny doesn't know the rules?), plus the rest of the squad of high-level shooters, plus the ROs and CROs on the stage, plus the large group of shooters watching---none of them found a problem with this?

Doesn't that rather support my point, that we need a ruling promulgated, because obviously plenty of people _don't_ know/understand this situation?

sperman said:

I have a lot of questions I would like answered, but asking them on this thread doesn't seem to be appropriate or productive. I've e-mailed my Area Director. We'll see what she has to say.

Exactly. Contact your Area directors, and ask them about this---because I'm thinking _lots_ of people don't understand this situation.

[ChuckS]

Just because someone makes M or GM does not mean they know the rules very well.

May be true but they usually know when to NOT ask questions

[2alpha]

I've got an idea. How about not allowing these SA unloaded gun on table with mags starting positions at all? I don't see what we would lose competition wise.

The P word doesn't even come close to this.

We did away with weak hand draws from the holster years ago and I don't miss them.

[Skydiver]

We would lose some of the flexibility given to stage designers. Consider the video posted earlier in this thread. For open on limited shooters, that stage would have been pretty much the same boring thing, but it made it very interesting for divisions that have limited capacity.

[Vlad]

So .. this is idiotic. It is almost like USPSA wants people to throw their hands up in the air and shoot something that is not called USPSA.

Can of worms my ass, this is the crude oil carrier of worms. It basically says I can't reload on the move, I can't take a strong hand only shot as I grab my reload mag, etc.

I am as well going to contact my area director and formally request the start of proceedings to replace DNROI with our thanks for his service over the years.

[pjb45]

What a great thread! There is a lot of information or disinformation, you choose.

I am particlarily concerned with the Single Stack version of reloading while on the move. If my reload takes several steps for beginning to end, is my hand equipment and a retention device? So I get moved to Open?

I have had more than one lawyer explain the "reasonable man" logic. Is it reasonable for a RO to determine when the hand becomes a retention device and when the reloading process ends? It is too subjective.

In law, math, logic, a theory is supposed to be valid not just for the simple case but for more complex cases. I see the hand as equipment failing the test.

The idea of getting official responses back from the NROI is reasonable. It is how theory, rule is explain to help all of us apply the rule consistently. Remaining silent does not add credibility.

[Flexmoney]

We need to take a look at how IPSC (or IDPA) handles this. We aren't in a good place here.

This is Practicality and Freestyle getting pushed out in favor of...something else.

[badchad]

We need to take a look at how IPSC (or IDPA) handles this. We aren't in a good place here.

I quoted the IPSC rule in post #130.

This is Practicality and Freestyle getting pushed out in favor of...something else.

Agreed.

[Steven Cline]

Forgive me, but I like how IPSC words it.

IPSC Handgun Rules, January 2009, 2nd Edition

5.2.4. Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices should be

carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose, to

reduce the risk of loss during a course of fire.

5.2.4.1. For table starts or similar, after the Start Signal, the competitor

may carry those items anywhere on their person, and this will

not be treated as contravention of Divisional rules.

That's beautiful- clear and right to the point!!!

Please, let's adopt that.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Steven Cline

[Steven Cline]

Perhaps it is because the rules for SS and Production require the holster and other equipment (magazines/speedloaders) to be behind the forward point of the hip bone.

All of this is pretty easy to understand if you understand the rules of SS and Production equipment placement.

I don't know. If it were so easy then I don't think Amidon would have given me the exact opposite answer regarding holding Production and SS mags in the mouth or hand in 2009, with a slew of CROs standing around him in agreement. Here was my post of the subject when it was fresh in my mind:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86671&view=findpost&p=1063120

At that time you thought it ok to put mags in the mouth too:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86671&view=findpost&p=998999

I'm kinda one of those CROs. A reading of the rules leads JA to say what he says, no matter how silly it seems or how much sense it makes to aloow hand carry. I readily admit I have carried mags in hand at local matches and at DT 2010. I readily admit now that it would be a move to open.

I don't wish it to be so.

I just can't get aroudn the wording of the rule.

The solution is the changing of the rule. The IPSC version gets us back in line with the freestyle heart and soul of our sport.

[sperman]

Steven,

Help me understand where the rulebook says that the hand is the same as a mag pouch.

I would be in agreement If JA's opinion were that no division were allowed to hand carry. But his opinion is that hand carrying a mag is allowed, but if the mag is carried in the hand, it must be behind the hip bone. I just don't see anything in the rulebook that supports that opinion.

[Flexmoney]

I'd have to re-read our current USPSA rules again, but I don't see where a mag in the hand would be the same as a mag in storage. And, that is how I would likely rule on it if I were sitting on an arb committee.

To me, there is a distinction there. The distinction being that the mag is stored if you put it on a belt, stick it to a magnet, place in it a pocket...etc.

[Singlestack]

I'd have to re-read our current USPSA rules again, but I don't see where a mag in the hand would be the same as a mag in storage. And, that is how I would likely rule on it if I were sitting on an arb committee.

To me, there is a distinction there. The distinction being that the mag is stored if you put it on a belt, stick it to a magnet, place in it a pocket...etc.

I completly agree. If it is in my hand, I'm using it.