CHA-LEE Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 I would like to get others perspective on dealing with a large quantity of new shooters attending a local match. Recently we have had a decent amount of first time new shooters attending the local matches. Most of the clubs have been putting them on their own "New Shooter" squad. Only a few have been mixing the new shooters into the regular squads. To me, I think its a mistake to have an all new shooter squad. First, when you have a whole squad of new shooters its like having the blind leading the blind bumbling all over each other the whole match. There isn't a "monkey see, monkey do" factor to learn from the experienced shooters in both working and shooting the stages. Secondly, the few experienced shooters that end up running the new shooter squad basically get run like rentals all day long because they are tasked with ROing and coaching the shooters through the whole match. This pretty much ruins the experienced shooters match. Lastly, I think its a disjustice to the new shooters to segregate them from the experienced shooters. They should have the opportunity to experience the match from the same perspective as all the other shooters. Can anyone give a good reason why you would intentionally create a separate all new shooter squad? Maybe I am missing something??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 I totally agree with you. I think we are doing a disservice to new shooters by doing this. This sport is not easy for new shooters. They get discouraged quickly and never come back. We generally ensure new shooters are paired with more experienced shooters. I generally shoot with a small group of folks on our squad. There is always room for new shooters, we go out of way to help and encourage them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 At my IDPA clubs, we try to pair new shooters with experienced shooters who like helping them and spread them around the squads. I think this is the way to go. A newbie squad sucks for the experienced guys and tends to back up the match too. When I was new to USPSA, I squadded with friends from IDPA who already shot both. One time I ended up with mostly newer shooters, but they had mostly shot a few matches. How good they thought I was was a nice ego boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) Kinda like making them sit at the back of the bus, isn't it? Our clubs welcomes new shooters, and tries to integrate them into squads with experienced shooters. But what I'd like to see happen is where we would "assign" them a buddy, so to speak. An experienced shooter would would be "in charge" of showing them not so much how to shoot, but how the match runs, where the safety area is, how to paste & set steel, etc. Just like a big brother, I suppose. Edited March 24, 2011 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Amen Chris. That is a fantastic idea. Why don't we do it? I'd help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 A local club used to do that regularly, and with their approach it actually worked out quite well for all involved. Two important considerations at each match were having at least two volunteer experienced people join the squad to provide guidance and feedback, and an empty bay behind the squad. They could take their time and not be pressured by a squad catching up with them. Within those fairly narrow parameters it worked well. These days, I like grabbing a couple of new shooters to be on our squad. They usually learn a lot before the day is over, not the least of which is how to have fun at a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGentry Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 the new shooter squad basically get run like rentals all day :roflol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 When we have new shooters, we give them a brief safety lecture, a live fire safety check and place them on squads with experienced shooters. No way would I condone a squad full of new shooters. they cannot possibly make it through the match without major safety and other rule violations. How do they score a shooter, who runs them? OK, Dedicated Stage ROs, still no good. There is no one to guide them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kreativecid Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 At the matches I've been to where several new shooters show up together they do everything to make sure the newbies are not all squadded together. I understand two new shooters who are friends may feel comfortable squadding, and that seems to be okay, but the MD likes having the safety and knowledge factor of experienced gamers help the new guy/girl along. Three or more new shooters get put in different squads. Seem 3 or more turns into a major break in concentration and safety due to lots of talking and reliving the moment of success or failure instead of making ready or picking up brass, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Kinda like making them sit at the back of the bus, isn't it? Our clubs welcomes new shooters, and tries to integrate them into squads with experienced shooters. But what I'd like to see happen is where we would "assign" them a buddy, so to speak. An experienced shooter would would be "in charge" of showing them not so much how to shoot, but how the match runs, where the safety area is, how to paste & set steel, etc. Just like a big brother, I suppose. This is a good way of doing it. I like to think of it as mentoring or in my case I would call it sponsoring. I should have two new shooters coming to the match this weekend that I have been working with behind the scenes to get ready. I would feel like I only did half my job if I did not sponsor them at their first match. I like the "battle buddy" idea for a new shooter who just shows up out of the blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 We don't get too many new shooters at our local matches (maybe 1 or 2 per match), but I would like to hand out cards with the USPSA website on them so they could read the rules. Before I started shooting, I read the PDF rulebook on the USPSA website cover to cover at least 3 times. I knew more rules than some of the veteran shooters. I noticed other single stack shooters with mags positioned up front etc. Didn't say anything as a newbie but nonetheless, knew the rules! This doesn't mean you have to be an expert shooter to start USPSA but I think a statement should be made by the RO giving the safety lecture that if a new shooter gets DQ'd, don't let that discourage them. It's just for the safety of them and everyone else at the range, as well as abiding by the USPSA rulebook. After all, our scores go into the classification system and I don't think it's fair to the other "rule abiding" shooters to have to compete with guys running mag pouches up front (for SS) or major safety issues. I guess the truth comes out at a major match, so doesn't make too much difference to me. I'm just there to improve. I think it would be very easy for a new shooter to get discouraged no matter how nice everyone is at the range. I have purposefully engaged conversation with new shooters during course set-up to talk to them about basic safety rules and to encourage them in the sport. Kind of a rambling post, but you get the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastmtnbiker33w Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 There isn't a "monkey see, monkey do" factor to learn from the experienced shooters in both working and shooting the stages. ...and sometimes we definitely ALL feel like monkeys out there. Having a new shooter only squad would be like me hosting a mountain bike clinic and making all the newbies go ride by themselves while myself and the other hammerheads go have a good time. While shooting sports are very competitive, it's more like a time trial as opposed to a mass start. If I hadn't had the chance to see other more experienced shooters shoot a course of fire during my first match, I probably would not have returned for a second match. Erik S. and I are fortunate (or maybe it's unfortunate....not sure) that we have small turnouts for our matches. Usually no more than 3 squads of nine or ten. I may not be any good, but at least I'm having fun, able to watch MUCH better shooters, and I learned to safely maneuver through a course of fire very rapidly with confidence in a short period of time by watching the grand monkeys...I mean masters. Now I even look forward to being the first one to shoot a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 We are starting a new shooter mentorship program this year at the club I run. New shooters will be introduced to experienced shooters (mentors) they will squad together and the new shooter will have a free match, no score will be taken, just go through the motions and shoot safe with no mikes (hopefully). The mentor will coach the new shooter during the walk through and during the COF if need be. We feel that this approach may keep new shooters from getting intimidated and make them feel more welcome. Without new shooters our great sport will die off. They need to be treated like we want them to be there, or they won't return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I have posted this in other threads, but... We are very lucky at our club. We have two monthly 'Practice Matches' 2 semi-field courses and two 'Speed-Shoots' 1st and 3rd Friday of every month. New shooters are specifically invited to these and are given an extended classroom session, a simple live fire check and then run through the courses. If they manage this they are then qualified to shoot the real match. We also have new shooters come to the real match without this class and they get a shorter version of the class and they still get a live fire safety check, then they are squadded with experienced shooters for the match. We average probably over 50 shooters with runs as high as the low 80s at times. Embedding the new shooters with the rest of us is the ONLY safe sane way to introduce people to USPSA. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 I fully agree with all of your suggestions and they are good ones. I just don't understand why some of the local clubs feel that it should be done the other way around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sr20ve Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Are you sure the club is encouraging them all to squad together and to not have experianced shooters in the squad? Or is it happening by chance because they like the instructor and want to squad with him/her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedNinja Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Adding the new shooters to the more experienced squad is the best thing to do for any club. I have had the pleasure of shooting with two of the guys who have responded to this post. My first match here in Dayton I was lucky to have Sarge (Kevin) in the group who took the time to help me and others in our squad. This past month, Chris and Micah ran the squad and if you had any questions, they were the first to help you. You can make or break a club by not welcoming the new shooters and I'm glad that our club has these guys leading by example. Del Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glefos Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 But what I'd like to see happen is where we would "assign" them a buddy, so to speak. An experienced shooter would would be "in charge" of showing them not so much how to shoot, but how the match runs, where the safety area is, how to paste & set steel, etc. Just like a big brother, I suppose. This is how I shot my first match. MCRC in Columbia, SC. Asked if there were any new shooters. When I raised my hand, I got assigned to someone (turned out to be Jack Suber the sections coordinator). This should be a standard practice. Works very well for a new overwhelmed shooter and doesn't ruin the match for the mentor shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNorth Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Are you sure the club is encouraging them all to squad together and to not have experianced shooters in the squad? Or is it happening by chance because they like the instructor and want to squad with him/her? That is what I saw at the first match. All the new shooters (there was like 20-25 of them) were with a couple of instructers in one of the bays. I actually thought it was a shooting class when I first got there until I went to sign up and found out squad one was new shooters. It looked more like a class than a bunch of new shooters trying to figure out USPSA. I haven't been to any of the matches since; so, if they're all still being squadded together, if seems like a bit of a disservice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 There isn't a "monkey see, monkey do" factor to learn from the experienced shooters in both working and shooting the stages. ...and sometimes we definitely ALL feel like monkeys out there. Having a new shooter only squad would be like me hosting a mountain bike clinic and making all the newbies go ride by themselves while myself and the other hammerheads go have a good time. While shooting sports are very competitive, it's more like a time trial as opposed to a mass start. If I hadn't had the chance to see other more experienced shooters shoot a course of fire during my first match, I probably would not have returned for a second match. Erik S. and I are fortunate (or maybe it's unfortunate....not sure) that we have small turnouts for our matches. Usually no more than 3 squads of nine or ten. I may not be any good, but at least I'm having fun, able to watch MUCH better shooters, and I learned to safely maneuver through a course of fire very rapidly with confidence in a short period of time by watching the grand monkeys...I mean masters. Now I even look forward to being the first one to shoot a stage. Grand Monkeys! That's a good one. I still want to be one someday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) Putting all the new shooters on one squad is definitely detrimental. The buddy system sounds like the best solution to me. As a couple of others have pointed out, this can be a pretty intimidating sport to a new shooter and the newbies need to be encouraged and know that no one expects them to be at the top of the game just starting out. We need to do what we can to 'set the hook' so to speak, and keep them coming back. The El Paso club has been running a great program for years for new shooters. One of their older experienced shooters goes out every 4th Sunday and sets up a course of fire to run new shooters through. He coaches them and lets them run the same course as much as they want. The newbies come to the next regular match a lot better mentally equipped to shoot a competitive match, and enjoy the match more. My wife took advantage of this class and went on to shoot Open Division for some time. Hat's off to Verle O'Conner for all the time he has put into this program! Edited April 4, 2011 by 392heminut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 So far I've seen: evangelists for our sport invite co-workers and they end up as a squad. In this case it was an experienced shooter who conducted new shooter briefing and coached them through the match mentors take over. I once did, seen others as well. Sorta adopt the lost puppy and coach 'em along I am now considering changing our squading sheets so that they reserve no more than 3 spaces for "New Shooter." Currently they contain numbered spaces with the top new spaces labled for "CRO" and "RO." Doing so might ensure I don't end up with 5 or more new shooters on the same squad. I don't want to break up the buddy squads. I understand, sometimes ya want to shoot with yer friends. But a squad of 5 brand new shooters and no experienced RO sounds like a recipe for bad things. Ideally two experienced ROs who are willing to coach a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tackdr1ver Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I would like to get others perspective on dealing with a large quantity of new shooters attending a local match. Recently we have had a decent amount of first time new shooters attending the local matches. Most of the clubs have been putting them on their own "New Shooter" squad. Only a few have been mixing the new shooters into the regular squads. To me, I think its a mistake to have an all new shooter squad. First, when you have a whole squad of new shooters its like having the blind leading the blind bumbling all over each other the whole match. There isn't a "monkey see, monkey do" factor to learn from the experienced shooters in both working and shooting the stages. Secondly, the few experienced shooters that end up running the new shooter squad basically get run like rentals all day long because they are tasked with ROing and coaching the shooters through the whole match. This pretty much ruins the experienced shooters match. Lastly, I think its a disjustice to the new shooters to segregate them from the experienced shooters. They should have the opportunity to experience the match from the same perspective as all the other shooters. Can anyone give a good reason why you would intentionally create a separate all new shooter squad? Maybe I am missing something??? Agreed, it is a huge mistake to group all of the new people together. A friend of mine and I had the pleasure of running a squad like this last month. The match director was out of town so a few of us filled in where we could. Now my friend has been shooting USPSA for over 20 years and I have been at it just about a year. There were certain points in time where I thought we wouldn't make it another day. It was a stressful day. We had people coming close to breaking the 180, doing wild mag changes and all sorts of things new shooters do. Needless to say we were both glad that day ended safely. It was far too stressful to have two guys run 10 new shooters all day. We didn't get a break and our heads were constantly on a swivel. That night when I got home I literally cracked open a beer, ate and fell asleep in the chair within an hour of being home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivers_AR Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I think that its better to pair experienced and Newbies together. Newbies don't even know what they don't know. Its nice to be able to ask someone what's going on and beyond the basics, getting an intro to course management. Newbies aren't going to be able to help each other. The ROs are usually busy, rightly so, focusing on rules and safety. Interesting concept, have ROs in training or new ROs squad with the newbies a few times. They are going to have to learn to deal with basic questions and should be able to impart knowledge prior to having to deal with running competitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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