Is USPSA about accuracy?

[tpcdvc]

It's called the USPSA and the P stands for PRACTICAL. Yes, that means the practical application of a handgun and our sport was born and designed around that idea. It would not be practical to spend anymore time on a target than it takes to get a good practical hit (A sometimes C zone). In fact, if an A zone was so far away that it was the size of a pool ball, the target would be well beyond the 25yd practical range of a handgun. That is just not what we do, and that is how it should be.

There is almost zero practical application to shooting super tight groups with a handgun unless you hunt or do those kinds of competitions. Is it good to be able to do? Sure, but I don't think our sport is the place to do it.

[Nik Habicht]

If I recall correctly there is a accuracy sport that comes to mind...its called BIANCHI CUP

And NRA Action Pistol is one of the best ways to get some relevant to USPSA skills practice in.....

[Stony Lane]

I agree with Seth, Top Shot is ONLY a game/reality show.

IF every shooter did every competition as an individual, and then those results were added up, perhaps it could be said to be a real shooting competition.

[manderson2228]

I don't think its a matter of not being able to shoot accurately, I think it is more of a lack of patience. Since the USPSA shooters on the show come from a sport which greatly rewards doing things quickly all of them tend to rush the shots they make. Telling a USPSA Shooter that they need to be patient and take a couple of seconds to break a high precision shot goes against most of what we train and do during a normal match environment. That combined with these USPSA shooters normally using highly modified and tricked out competition guns with kick ass trigger jobs also does not help their ability to pick up an off the shelf pistil with a gritty, mile long, 5+ lb trigger pull. There are not many USPSA shooters that can easily transition from their crisp 2lb trigger job over to a putrid 5+lb stock trigger pull of a factory gun without seeing some significant negative affect in their sight alignment during the trigger press process

I think thats the point some people are trying to make though, does the speed of USPSA and the high speed guns... Make it harder for you to transition to a "normal" type gun? I am sure Chris T doesn't carry his open gun when he goes to the bad part of town. Is the speed and tricked out guns actually hurting us?

[98sr20ve]

It's so clearly about speed 95% of the time. A-Zone is HUGE compared to people shooting other sports. If you tape over 50% of the A Zone most people well aim for a upper a and just hope for the best but not slow down to get a "A".

[JakeMartens]

It's so clearly about speed 95% of the time. A-Zone is HUGE compared to people shooting other sports. If you tape over 50% of the A Zone most people well aim for a upper a and just hope for the best but not slow down to get a "A".

Thank you

Take Top Shot out of the discussion, the question is

Have we become mostly about speed and have set ourselves up to think we are more accurate shooters than we really are?

[mpolans]

Top Shot is just a TV show, but I do agree that USPSA shooting has become more about high round counts and speed at the expense of accuracy. Decreasing the number of targets and forcing longer shots and/or partial targets would even things out.

[Dan Hefta]

Let's consider changing our sport because it is not all about the accuracy that we claim it is. If anyone can shoot accurately then lets see it happen.

Top shot is a silly game, but it seems to have pointed out that USPSA is less about accuracy than it claims to be.

Let's change football into baseball, hockey into socker Topshot, USPSA, IDPA, Bianchi all different sports with different rules.

[Jaxshooter]

As someone said earlier Top Shot is a game. USPSA shooting is also a game. I am sure a top Bianchi shooter can hit a pool ball with the gun those guys were shooting. They all got to practice with the gun they shot prior to the challenge. We are not the elite pistol shooters some USPSA shooters would like everybody to believe. Speed in our game trumps accuracy. Like another poster said we can change that by redesigning stages that require more accuracy than speed.

[Dan Hefta]

Bottom line... runnin' and gunnin' and hosing down targets equals fun! Stand and shoots suck! Long standards Suck!! Prone possition sucks!!! Weak handed shooting sucks!!!! I have been running matches for three years now and I can't think of one time that a shooter came to me and said "I really liked the stage with all of the hardcover and no-shoots and 30 yard plates". I get all of the compliments on the fun stages with a lot of options.

[Z-man]

Here's a thought. Take two shooters, a USPSA GM and a "backyard plinker". Have them stand in one place and take several shots, slow-fire, at a single target with a very generous time limit. The skills involved in such a challenge are fairly minimal and there is very little room for either competitor to separate themselves from the other. Now give the two shooters more tasks.... have them draw the gun from a holster, move through several positions, take several shots from varied stances/positions, make them transition the gun, reload the gun, etc. As you add tasks you increase the ability for a shooter to dominate. None of the major skills sets or tasks that are involved in our sport are being tested in the show (ie. reloads, draws, movement, shooting on the move, transitions, splits, varied positions, etc.). There is no room for the show's GM's to demonstrate their ability. Granted, we would all like to think we would still be better off with accuracy tasks, but as CHA-LEE mentioned, the hardest task for a USPSA shooter is to ignore any sense of speed or urgency and take slow-accurate-single shots!! It goes against typically training. The backyard plinker usually goes out with a box of ammo and sits and takes all the time in the world to make shots. I gave up on getting frustrated with Top Shot a long time ago because there is an obvious preference in all of the challenges. As much as many people are disappointed at a lack of performance by USPSA types, I've been disappointed by the lack of variety in the shooting challenges. If I watch another stupid old-timy gun challenge with some relay type race where shooters plink single shots with enough time for the paint on each target to dry I'll puke.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Z-man

[JakeMartens]

There is no room for the show's GM's to demonstrate their ability.

Like to pick up a gun, load it and shoot it accurately at a target........

[sperman]

I think using Top Shot as a barometer for USPSA is silly, but let's do it anyway.

Last year Blake finished in the top 5 and JJ finished in the top 3. Season 1 was one by a 3-gun shooter.

Athena was eliminated shooting a gun that weighed almost as much as she did. Maggie was eliminated shooting bows and arrows, and Chris was eliminated with tomahawks and blow guns.

[kevin c]

I'm guilty of the drift, so let me get back on track.

We have one regular stage builder at my home club who's notorious for accuracy stages. People always groan when he builds a stage. It even got to the point where a former club president complained that he was not only scaring off the newbies, who would dump magazine after magazine at 4" plates at 20 yards, SHO, but the regulars as well, who said it wasn't fun.

Part of the fun is shooting a lot of rounds quickly, but it isn't fun if most of those rounds are misses, especially if you have to "slow down" to take the shots, and still miss.

We shoot multiple shots, quickly. We shoot while moving. We shoot targets that move. I think all the action pistol sports are like this (that's why they're "action" sports), and all seem to use fairly generous maximum scoring and total target sizes. Most other shooting, save for shotgun, is static, allowing for finer aiming, and the targets can be correspondingly smaller.

So, I think it's fair to say that we are less accuracy oriented than many other target sports, if you're talking about the size of the target hit. But, let's face it, if the sport always required us to shoot Bullseye type groups in competition, it'd be Bullseye, not Action pistol. As pointed out above, "practical" accuracy is what we started with,and is what we are still about.

Should a well rounded top shooter be able to shoot tight groups? Of course. Should we? Of course. Do we use that skill much? No, and so we don't really do it all day long in practice like a Bullseye or long range pistol or rifle guy. Could we move in that direction? Sure, and some already do, though it itsn't popular.

[West Texas Granny]

It's so clearly about speed 95% of the time. A-Zone is HUGE compared to people shooting other sports. If you tape over 50% of the A Zone most people well aim for a upper a and just hope for the best but not slow down to get a "A".

Thank you

Take Top Shot out of the discussion, the question is

Have we become mostly about speed and have set ourselves up to think we are more accurate shooters than we really are?

Pretty much sums it up. The latest mag showed a guy that had runup to a barrier, with one leg in the air,falling out of the box shooting at a target.

Practical. No way. Unsafe. Yep. Running,off balance,triggers so light a firefly could set them off cannot be considered safe. One must have complete control of ones body to be safe. I hope USPSA changes things before someone gets injured or killed.

[West Texas Granny]

I'm guilty of the drift, so let me get back on track.

We have one regular stage builder at my home club who's notorious for accuracy stages. People always groan when he builds a stage. It even got to the point where a former club president complained that he was not only scaring off the newbies, who would dump magazine after magazine at 4" plates at 20 yards, SHO, but the regulars as well, who said it wasn't fun.

Part of the fun is shooting a lot of rounds quickly, but it isn't fun if most of those rounds are misses, especially if you have to "slow down" to take the shots, and still miss.

We shoot multiple shots, quickly. We shoot while moving. We shoot targets that move. I think all the action pistol sports are like this (that's why they're "action" sports), and all seem to use fairly generous maximum scoring and total target sizes. Most other shooting, save for shotgun, is static, allowing for finer aiming, and the targets can be correspondingly smaller.

So, I think it's fair to say that we are less accuracy oriented than many other target sports, if you're talking about the size of the target hit. But, let's face it, if the sport always required us to shoot Bullseye type groups in competition, it'd be Bullseye, not Action pistol. As pointed out above, "practical" accuracy is what we started with,and is what we are still about.

Should a well rounded top shooter be able to shoot tight groups? Of course. Should we? Of course. Do we use that skill much? No, and so we don't really do it all day long in practice like a Bullseye or long range pistol or rifle guy. Could we move in that direction? Sure, and some already do, though it itsn't popular.

But where is the challenge. You don't get better doing the easy stuff like shooting big targets at short ranges.

[bulm540]

Why the concern about USPSA's accuracy requirements based on a reality based TV show. Danica Patrick finished in a stock car race which is higher than she has ever finished in F1 so does that mean she is a better stock car driver. To determine if accuracy is really needed in USPSA then one only has to go to the last Nationals and look at an individual shooters summary by stage scoring.

Danica does not drive in F1. SHe drives in the Indy car series ( not quite F1).

[SteveU]

I like the way Saul Kirsch puts it in his book. Shooting groups at 50 yards is a good practice because your accuracy with all the time in the world is your baseline. All the tasks you are forced to do wihle shooting erodes your accuracy. Moving, timed, reloading, obstacles, etc.

If you do not have the accuracy when you shoot without the timer, you will not have any accuracy to give up when you compete on the clock.

So yes, we do need accuracy, we do USE accuracy, but only when you add the long shots on steel or partial HC or no shoots does it really demonstrate how much of an advantage it is. So a draw to a 5 yard full-sized IPSC target is not going to make much of a difference how accurate you are, the transition to the 30 yard steel plates after that will be won by the more accurate shooter. Different stages test different skills.

The key is to recognize the challenge so you only give up as much accuracy as you can and still get the A hit.

Circling back to top shot, the accuracy requirement was such that it tipped the balance more towards accuracy than speed just as a long field course with 7-10 yard open targets will be won by the one who shoots it the fastest.

[sperman]

Why the concern about USPSA's accuracy requirements based on a reality based TV show. Danica Patrick finished in a stock car race which is higher than she has ever finished in F1 so does that mean she is a better stock car driver. To determine if accuracy is really needed in USPSA then one only has to go to the last Nationals and look at an individual shooters summary by stage scoring.

Danica does not drive in F1. SHe drives in the Indy car series ( not quite F1).

And she has a victory in that series (2008 Japan)

[Nik Habicht]

So a draw to a 5 yard full-sized IPSC target is not going to make much of a difference how accurate you are, the transition to the 30 yard steel plates after that will be won by the more accurate shooter. Different stages test different skills.

I'd argue that both of those shots require a different vision, as far as sight picture is concerned, and different levels of visual patience. The stage will be won by the shooter who can most effortlessly transition between the requirements needed for each shot, spending no more time on each hit than is required to make it....

We also deal in acceptable accuracy -- shooting targets on the move and not slowing down or stopping to make that shot we called near the A-C border, knowing that it's a D at worst, if we truly miscalled it -- because time also matters in our game....

[ninemmbill]

Why the concern about USPSA's accuracy requirements based on a reality based TV show. Danica Patrick finished in a stock car race which is higher than she has ever finished in F1 so does that mean she is a better stock car driver. To determine if accuracy is really needed in USPSA then one only has to go to the last Nationals and look at an individual shooters summary by stage scoring.

Danica does not drive in F1. SHe drives in the Indy car series ( not quite F1).

And she has a victory in that series (2008 Japan)

Not a big deal but, her win was in the Indy Racing League and not the F1 series.

[NatNat]

Just to ad my 0.02

Noone realy talked about the psychological effect off being in a TV show as the "pistol expert". Just because he is GM does not mean that he is not affected by the mental stress!

Secondly, USPSA/IPSC is not only about shooting. Movement, Draw, Reload, awkward posisions, recoil management, shot calling and movement again! These are the skills that make a National Champ, not beeing able to hit 1' groups at 25 yards and neither beeing able to shoot 6 rounds a second.

Now i forgot my third point

[SteveU]

So a draw to a 5 yard full-sized IPSC target is not going to make much of a difference how accurate you are, the transition to the 30 yard steel plates after that will be won by the more accurate shooter. Different stages test different skills.

I'd argue that both of those shots require a different vision, as far as sight picture is concerned, and different levels of visual patience. The stage will be won by the shooter who can most effortlessly transition between the requirements needed for each shot, spending no more time on each hit than is required to make it....

We also deal in acceptable accuracy -- shooting targets on the move and not slowing down or stopping to make that shot we called near the A-C border, knowing that it's a D at worst, if we truly miscalled it -- because time also matters in our game....

I agree 1000%

[aztecdriver]

My thoughts - both sides have a point - and I don't give a rip what anyone says USPSA shooters look like on top shot. Y'all want to use the pool balls as an example - and it's the first one I'm pitching away. First day, no expectations, they didn't even get to know each other, first time you have cameras there - and you got Colby barking out what is going on in the background - anyone here want to put that in perspective? Anyone here want to try it - yeah - heck yes I would. Anyone else want to take back that first shot you break because you expected the trigger to break at 2 lbs instead of 6? Without having first even racked the slide let alone dry fired it - You bet I would, but then again - some people might think they've got that.

I am mediocre - low B in just about everything, and I shoot Glocks for the most part. I posted earlier I went to glock match - but I don't have a 17 to shoot in civilian, so I borrowed someone elses. I get up there and just shoot - felt good. Get down range and I'm appalled. D hits everywhere. What??? You think that a training on muscle memory doesn't have an effect? Pull out my G35 limited gun and dropped almost half the time. Glock M' - oh yes, training kicked in and I *ding* pop pop *ding* and nearly choked. 10 second penalty for doing what we are trained to do - clear the steel. Anyone do that before? I took quite a bit of ribbing for being a USPSA shooter - and they were right - it's what we practice, over and over again.

Oh, but GMs shouldn't have that problem? Then maybe we are the ones that have built up the GM status in our heads?

What about the safety factor of some of these backyard plinkers now under time? Anyone catch Jamie's AD with the razorcat when he was reloading on the wheel of death? I didn't hear a DQ or a STOP. In fact he won the challenge. You think these guys should run around (some of them) with a charged hand gun? The most movement I have seen is the elimination challenge with Jay and Jermaine. Yeah...

At the same time, yes, I feel we do ourselves a disservice by allowing the full run and gun get out of control, so some mix it up is in order. Gotta have some challenge on all sides. I believe classics have their use and using the excuse of bowing to political correctness is a crock. They are a target, they present a challenge, use them. Paint them - leave some open, but I gotta tell you, as an RO when I'm running a course and the majority of all runs are 2A with 6 Charlies - EVERY RUN with the only differentiator being time - unless someone is just really having a bad day, we've gone the other way.

As flex said, pull your scores. If they aren't dropping points and the only difference is time - it's not challenging enough.

As per thinking we have poor marksmen in Top Shot? Really?

Edited March 20, 2011 by aztecdriver

[Team Amish 1]

DON'T SHRINK THE A-ZONE!