LPatterson Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Why the concern about USPSA's accuracy requirements based on a reality based TV show. Danica Patrick finished in a stock car race which is higher than she has ever finished in F1 so does that mean she is a better stock car driver. To determine if accuracy is really needed in USPSA then one only has to go to the last Nationals and look at an individual shooters summary by stage scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 We don't need to change our game because our top shooters are not doing well on a TV game. USPSA is about "good enough". good enough accuracy, Good enough speed, Good enough sight picture, Good enough trigger pull. Other games have different requirements. Find the one that fits your style, don't change the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Chris shoots the alpha in the head box on the move...with his gun. Since we have some match director types on this thread, let me share a trick I like to use... Gather up the results from the last few matches you ran. Look at the stages and see what kind of hit factors you get from your shooters...in various divisions. Reading those will tell you if your matches are hard or easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 A tommy gun, a bow, a tomahawk, and bad hamstrings...hard to think that top shot has much relevance to our sport? Kind of what I was thinking. How many of you saw the elimination challenge with the revolving plates? How do you think the majority of GM Open shooters would have done on that event? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Why the concern about USPSA's accuracy requirements based on a reality based TV show. Danica Patrick finished in a stock car race which is higher than she has ever finished in F1 so does that mean she is a better stock car driver. To determine if accuracy is really needed in USPSA then one only has to go to the last Nationals and look at an individual shooters summary by stage scoring. Exactly Nils 6 mikes, 9 deltas Todd 1 mike 5 deltas Rob 1 mike, 7 deltas Bob V 0 mikes 6 deltas maybe you can miss fast enough to win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 A tommy gun, a bow, a tomahawk, and bad hamstrings...hard to think that top shot has much relevance to our sport? Kind of what I was thinking. How many of you saw the elimination challenge with the revolving plates? How do you think the majority of GM Open shooters would have done on that event? Texas Star on Steroids, but A GM with an Open Gun? Clean and fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) I don't think its a matter of not being able to shoot accurately, I think it is more of a lack of patience. Since the USPSA shooters on the show come from a sport which greatly rewards doing things quickly all of them tend to rush the shots they make. Telling a USPSA Shooter that they need to be patient and take a couple of seconds to break a high precision shot goes against most of what we train and do during a normal match environment. That combined with these USPSA shooters normally using highly modified and tricked out competition guns with kick ass trigger jobs also does not help their ability to pick up an off the shelf pistil with a gritty, mile long, 5+ lb trigger pull. There are not many USPSA shooters that can easily transition from their crisp 2lb trigger job over to a putrid 5+lb stock trigger pull of a factory gun without seeing some significant negative affect in their sight alignment during the trigger press process Edited March 17, 2011 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 A tommy gun, a bow, a tomahawk, and bad hamstrings...hard to think that top shot has much relevance to our sport? Kind of what I was thinking. How many of you saw the elimination challenge with the revolving plates? How do you think the majority of GM Open shooters would have done on that event? Texas Star on Steroids, but A GM with an Open Gun? Clean and fast. Actually, I think the show's revolving targets might be easier than a texas star, since the rotation is constant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I don't think its a matter of not being able to shoot accurately, I think it is more of a lack of patience. Since the USPSA shooters on the show come from a sport which greatly rewards doing things quickly all of them tend to rush the shots they make. Telling a USPSA Shooter that they need to be patient and take a couple of seconds to break a high precision shot goes against most of what we train and do during a normal match environment. That combined with these USPSA shooters normally using highly modified and tricked out competition guns with kick ass trigger jobs also does not help their ability to pick up an off the shelf pistil with a gritty, mile long, 5+ lb trigger pull. There are not many USPSA shooters that can easily transition from their crisp 2lb trigger job over to a putrid 5+lb stock trigger pull of a factory gun without seeing some significant negative affect in their sight alignment during the trigger press process Sounds good to me. "See what you need to see". What we need to see to get a hit in a 6"x11" rectangle with a custom trigger is a lot different than, say, what Blake had to do last season: get a bullet onto a burning fuse probably no more than an eighth of an inch in diameter, with a stock trigger on an unfamiliar firearm. I think it's also true that we seldom require that degree of accuracy in most field courses, even most classifiers. Ya don't get good at what ya don't practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) "Ya don't get good at what ya don't practice" BINGO!!!! Edited March 17, 2011 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Sucks that Chris T lost in a challenge that had nothing to do with firearms. The show made him out to be a one trick pony pistol shooter, but just go on youtube and look at his 3Gun videos...he can do other things too. Unlike me, I AM a one trick pony pistol shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Vigilante Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) I don't really see that the USPSA/3-Gun shooters/supporters have any reason to complain about the format. They knew what they were getting into when they signed up for TopShot!!! Edited March 17, 2011 by The_Vigilante Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I think our game leans to the speed side. That is fine if that is how the game is played. But don't make excuses for the poor shooting by blaming the trigger pull, sights etc. Everybody shot the same gun with the same trigger and sights. A good shooter should still come out on top. Now as far as throwing tommyhawks I don't see the correlation to shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) I think our game leans to the speed side. That is fine if that is how the game is played. But don't make excuses for the poor shooting by blaming the trigger pull, sights etc. Everybody shot the same gun with the same trigger and sights. A good shooter should still come out on top. Now as far as throwing tommyhawks I don't see the correlation to shooting. I am not blaming the equipment in that fashion. I am blaming the training/skill base of the USPSA shooters. They don't regularly practice/compete with those kinds of guns configured in that way. They don't regularly practice/compete in conditions that afford them to take multiple seconds to break a single shot. If you think different I challenge any USPSA shooter to shoot a 10 shot group from a freestyle stance under a time crunch with both their competition rig and an off the shelf gun you are not use to and have the same size group in the same amount of time. Using familiar equipment in a familiar shooting challenge is an advantage. Edited March 17, 2011 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Why the concern about USPSA's accuracy requirements based on a reality based TV show. Danica Patrick finished in a stock car race which is higher than she has ever finished in F1 so does that mean she is a better stock car driver. To determine if accuracy is really needed in USPSA then one only has to go to the last Nationals and look at an individual shooters summary by stage scoring. I would expect a USPSA Grand master and a national champion without a time factor should be able to use the same 1911 that everyone else used and hit some pool balls. Regardless of the sort of gun one of our studs should not be out performed in such a contest. Last years final JJ was beat in a handgun event. Not what I would expect. Lots of backyard marksman are performing better in these challenges. So I think it is logical progression to ask are we over confident, are we more speed that accuracy. Can we not adjust to some different shooting challenges and shine? The answer is obvious that we have not done so yet. For a forum that at one time threw the phrase its the Indian not the arrow around a lot. There are a lot of gear excuses for a lack of performance being thrown around. I thought I would throw out some ideas about accuracy in our sport. For discussion and I see all this balance, balance and more balance. I would if we are not as balanced as we claim to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I'm surprised that know one here has mention that being a top level uspsa GM is not only about shooting accurately and shooting fast... those are just the stepping stones to what makes a champion uspsa shooter.. what really makes shooters like Athena, Magie, Chris T, Blake, etc, awesome in our sport is that on top of being great shooters, they have learned to play our game particularly well... Stage Brake down, economy of motion,ability to program a stage... calling a shot at speed.. this are all abilities that most be acquired to be good at our sport... and non of this really apply to the format of top shot's challenge... when it boils down to it's just a different game... Let's not act like uspsa is just about shooting fast and accurately. Anyway that's my opinion... good GM's miss shots all the time... but have develop this skill to make up those shots almost immediately... The challenges in Top Shot just don't reward that type of skill... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 We're good at what we do, and not so good at what we don't do, and we generally aren't doing anything much like what Top Shot wants their competitors to do. We put two shots at speed onto a roughly 6"x11" "bullseye", and are usually allowed make up shots, using the customized gun of our choice. We also reward hits that are off the aiming point. They want one shot per turn (IOW, hugh time penalty for misses) on a cue ball that's barely 2" in diameter, less than a 16th the visible target area, with a stock gun, one you may not have shot much more than a magazine through, and a shot off the target counts for zip. We're about all the targets, the more the better. Shot recovery and transitions, movement between arrays: all critical. They're leaning heavily towards first shot accuracy. Many of the challenges are one shot, one hit, and you're done. As far as the shooting has gone, it seems to reward using the most basic fundamentals for accuracy. Most of our running and gunning stuff is not pertinent, great on field courses, but there haven't been any on TS. Mebbe we're more specialized than we thought, like cheetahs - sleek, fast and deadly, but really good only at killing Thompson gazelles. Or, at least, much of what we pride ourselves on really isn't effective on TS. Oh, and we don't throw knives or tomahawks, use bows or "shoot" blowguns or slingshots much in our sport, and all the politics are in the clubhouse, not on the range... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Whatever happened to this forum, how many threads out there are on indian not the arrow, a GM could pick up any gun anytime and kick everyone butts with it Now we are specialized, and have specialized weapons and these challanges don't show these talents. It is shooting, shooting is shooting. If we can run and gun, we should be able to shot a pool ball, a plate, or whatever else is thrown out there, sight alignment is sight alignment, trigger control is trigger control The question is have we set ourselves up as a bunch of prima donna's that can only do one thing? I am sick of everyone on here making excuses as soon as a GM (just because they have a GM card) screws the pooch. Look do I stand there in awe of those guys as they blast thru a stage and go "jesus christo, how in the hell did they do that" yes I do, but I would think that they would be able to pick up a gun, pretty any gun and do the same thing with it, or stand back and shoot smiley faces at 20 yards. So now let's hear that well this is a different thing, how many times have we said that our type of competition prepares us for just about anything, put the pressure of time on us to preform, the presure to preform in a match, blah blah blah (fart noise) blah.... Seems like that hasn't hold true.....so make excuses for that now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 There's no excuses. gm's are human that's all... And honestly learning to shoot a gun accurately is not that hard.. It's mostly a matter of practice, you don't need to be a gm to hit a bulls eye a 25 yards any one can learn to do this... So for us to think that only uspsa shooters can shoot acuratly is pretty self-indulgent. At the end of the day all the folks that represented uspsa were humble through out the process.. But some how we (the community) are the ones with our egos hurt. Like some how they're failure or success reflects on our image... I think we owe this guys a litle more support, remember this guys are our friends, and range mates. I think we should stop being so judgmental and just enjoy the sport for what is... FUN!! Stop taking a game so seriously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Let's change our sport so our shooters will do better on top shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Let's consider changing our sport because it is not all about the accuracy that we claim it is. If anyone can shoot accurately then lets see it happen. Top shot is a silly game, but it seems to have pointed out that USPSA is less about accuracy than it claims to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 but it seems to have pointed out that USPSA is less about accuracy than it claims to be. I think that statement is no where near accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 A USPSA match and within the match the individual stages have many levels of accuracy available. We can have a mix all within one stage of open targets up close and 6" plates at 25 yards. We do this in a lot of our stages. And as I said, Accuracy is relevant. We need to hit the 'A' zone twice as fast as we can, we don't see a need to place two shots on the actual A. We need two A-hits FAST. If we wanted to push accuracy it is easy, Upper A-Zone only available scoring zone, 20 yard shots, next month, no shooters. Do this in practice, not in matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Its faux-Reality Television. It has NOTHING to do with being good at shooting. While the producers want to make believe that its about being adaptable, its not. Take the challenge from this week. One contestant HAD some experience with the blow gun, one had none. Chris learned a new trick, then, under pressure learned to apply his recently acquired skills and employ them. He came from WAY behind to lose by one. I'd suggest that that's the hallmark of greatness. Learning a new skill and applying it under pressure. Had you handed Chris the open gun in a challenge, what would have happened? This show is a game, not a representation of reality. There are external forces that eliminate viable competitors from the game without regard to their actual ability to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrawandDuck Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 You guys are funny I guess when everyone shoots all A's during the matches it would be time to reduce the size of the A-zone. If I recall correctly there is a accuracy sport that comes to mind...its called BIANCHI CUP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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