Virginia count strategy

[mpeltier]

I did a search and could not find a suitable thread for my question. Appologies if one exists.

At a local USPSA match yesterday we had a virginia count stage, and after we all shot it, I had a discusion with another shooter about strategy in the case of a miss (which I had).

First of all the stage was fairly strait forward, 6 IPSc targets five of which had no-shoots covering most, to-all, the A-zone of the body. Which pretty much just left you with a head shot on 3 of the targets. Distance was approximately 15yds from the targets, one shot each-mandatory reload,repeat twice, for a total of 18 shots, no-stacking.

My miss was on one of the head shot targets, and I called it. The discusion ensued that making up the shot would result in a better score (hit factor) that is worth the risk. The other shooter insisted that it would be a better score, and argued that the penalty gained woud be offset by the points gained. Doing the math using the one target as an example, it was the differance between a 0 for the target or +5 points (assuming the make-up was an A hit). My contention was that it was not worth the risk, and a best case of an A hit (plus the time for an extra hit) was not significant when actually hit-factored to the rest of the stage.

After playing with the results of the stage, and re-calculating the results, with a perfect make-up shot and the appropriate extra time, it would have given me +2 stage points, which changed nothing in the finish on that stage and no-change to the overall. Another miss, or worse, hitting a no-shoot would have been a disaster.

So, my question is, what would you do? Is the juice worth the squeeze? And if you respond share the division and your classification so we can see if there is a trend based on level.

I was shooting Limited-minor B class

Edited January 17, 2011 by mpeltier

[Sarge]

I'm a low B in production. I probably would not be fast enough to make it worth the risk. If they were wide open close targets, maybe. This sounds like one of those that falls under, the better shooter you are, and faster then the risk/ reward factor improves.

[Nik Habicht]

Straight answer: It all depends on how fast you can make up the miss with an A. At fifteen yards on partials, it might not buy you much. On El Presidente or Bang & Clang it might be a totally different story.....

Gamer answer: How close are you to A class? You might want to fire several extra shots, resulting in no-shoot or extra hits, just to make sure this one comes in below 55%....

[Sean Gaines]

you are already down 10 points for the miss and 5 points, for the points you could have had. Damage control would be to make up the shot and recieve only the 10 point extra shot penalty.

But it also depends on the hit factor on the stage, if you know it going in you can plan that into your stage preperation, but if not, you are only relying on instinct. Personally I usually take the shot, on a virgina count miss.

[Sean Gaines]

after I posted this, I thought of a question, sorry for the hijac.

But lets say you have 3 targets at 25 yds, and you have to shoot 2 at them(virgina count), and then move up to 15 yards and shoot them in a second string. Can you go and up to the targets and visually inspect your first set of shots before going to the 15yd line and shooting the second string? Is there anything in the rule book that says you can't?

[centermass]

it was the differance between a 0 for the target or +5 points (assuming the make-up was an A hit).

It really wouldn't be +5 would it? Virginia count extra shot penalty would be -10... so net -5, plus the extra time, would probably lower your hit factor?

Also, "no stacking" was mentioned... -10 for procedural if take a stacked shot to make up the miss, yes? So still down -15 (-10 proc, -10 VC extra, +5 A) as in the original scenario of -10 for the miss and not getting the 5 pt A hit.

I'm pretty sure there is no way to game a missed shot in Virginia count.

Edited January 17, 2011 by centermass

[mpeltier]

you are already down 10 points for the miss and 5 points, for the points you could have had. Damage control would be to make up the shot and recieve only the 10 point extra shot penalty.

But it also depends on the hit factor on the stage, if you know it going in you can plan that into your stage preperation, but if not, you are only relying on instinct. Personally I usually take the shot, on a virgina count miss.

This was my friends argument as well. But as I noted it sounds like a lot on that end of the figuring, but once hit factored it only (figured best case scenario) could have added 2 match points (and a more probable B hit would have equaled only 1 point). I guess my idea of damage control is to not to cause any more damage, not try to make up for whats already been done.

The best thing of course is not to miss (I would have won the stage in limited if that were the case).

[Joe4d]

On multi string COF's Strings are separately timed and separately scored. You cant make up a miss in string one on string two. Ideally the targets should be scored and taped between strings, but generally a score keeper will see and make note of the miss. Not to mention the cackling go on in the peanut gallery, especially if that miss drilled a noshoot. On the makeup shot math it depends, your down 15 points for the miss, a point comes up to real close to a tenth of a second more often than not, so you'd have to hesitate at the miss, go back and fire a makeup and continue and not loose more than a half second for the five point gain, then be risking your called miss didnt wing the D zone, now youd have an extra shot and an extra hit. So mathematically yes its beneficial to make up the shot, in practice probably not,

Edited January 17, 2011 by Joe4d

[mpeltier]

it was the differance between a 0 for the target or +5 points (assuming the make-up was an A hit).

It really wouldn't be +5 would it? Virginia count extra shot penalty would be -10... so net -5, plus the extra time, would probably lower your hit factor?

Also, "no stacking" was mentioned... -10 for procedural if take a stacked shot to make up the miss, yes? So still down -15 (-10 proc, -10 VC extra, +5 A) as in the original scenario of -10 for the miss and not getting the 5 pt A hit.

I'm pretty sure there is no way to game a missed shot in Virginia count.

assuming 3 A hits (taking 4 shots) equalls 15 points -10 for the extra shot = +5 target points for that target vs zero (2-A's = 10 -10 for the miss = 0). added time was estimated at .20

The one extra shot is not stacking.

You can game it to an advantage, I just do not believe its of any value (or very limited value), and can actually hurt you big time if you ar not succesful doing it. That was why I wanted to hear what others who have done the math feel about it.

Sean, I do not know what the ruling would be in the case you presented.

Edited January 17, 2011 by mpeltier

[centermass]

The one extra shot is not stacking.

How is it NOT stacking?

[ima45dv8]

On multi string COF's Strings are separately timed and separately scored.

Where does it say that?

[G-ManBart]

On multi string COF's Strings are separately timed and separately scored. You cant make up a miss in string one on string two.

Where are you getting that from?

You can make up a miss in string one during string two...it's gaming, but you can do it. You're going to get an extra shot penalty, but not an extra hit penalty. It's also possible to have an extra hit, without an extra shot penalty, if the targets are close and you pull/push one into the wrong target.

[JAFO]

The one extra shot is not stacking.

How is it NOT stacking?

Stacking is defined in 9.4.5.3 as:

"Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required

rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer

shots than specified in any string)..."

He would not have been stacking because he was taking an extra shot, not putting an extra round on one while delivering fewer on another.

I had a GM give me the same advice on a similar stage after the fact - close targets mostly-obscured by no-shoots. My miss was on my last string and I wasn't sure I called it right as a miss, but it was, so there was no chance to take the extra shot. I was close enough that I might have been able to make it up fairly quickly with an A, but only if I could've made it up on a freestyle portion. The last string was one shot freestyle, reload, one shot weak hand, and, being a high C in Production, I would not have attempted an extra shot on the weak hand portion.

[Flatland Shooter]

You can make up a miss in string one during string two...it's gaming, but you can do it. You're going to get an extra shot penalty, but not an extra hit penalty.

Rule 6.1.1 supports this. If the stage designer wants to keep the competitor from making up possible misses on subsequent strings, they need to specify in the WSB that the targets be scored and taped between strings. Otherwise, as G-ManBart says, "it's gaming, but you can do it".

[Nik Habicht]

The one extra shot is not stacking.

How is it NOT stacking?

For starters we don't penalize the same infraction twice. Then we don't pick general penalties (stacking -- which has a very specific definition) when a specific penalty is already spelled out in the rulebook as Extra Shot and Extra Hit are....

Look at 9.4.5.3:

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string. This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically

authorizes stacked shots.

An extra shot can't be stacking, unless there's a failure to fire sufficient rounds at a later target, in which case the failure to engage those targets insufficiently is what earns the procedural.....

[mpeltier]

Thanks to JAFO and Nick for the stacking clarification.

Nick mentioned that the miss/make up shot may have more of a reward on "El presidente". Does anybody have any idea what the points and time would be for a B shooter to run a clean El-pres? I could then figure the math backwards assuming a miss to come up with what it would have done to the hit factor in both instances. Its bee a loooong time scince i shot one this is why I ask.

[sperman]

I think taking extra shots on VC stages is a bad habit. I've seen too many people call a miss and take the makeup shot, only to find out they had the hit. Now they have the extra shot plus the extra hit penalty. Even if they had the miss, it's still a risk if the makeup shot is worth it.

[Flexmoney]

Do the math. Estimate your likelihood success.

[mpeltier]

Straight answer: It all depends on how fast you can make up the miss with an A. At fifteen yards on partials, it might not buy you much. On El Presidente or Bang & Clang it might be a totally different story.....

Well, I finally found some numbers to play with regarding El Presidente. It would indeed make a bigger differance (to the hit factor) on that stage, though very minimal in my opinion.

Shot clean I came up with a HF = 9.08

With a miss = 6.80

With a miss and makeup shot = 7.14

Is a .34 differance in hit factor very big? In the scope of things?

In my first scenario it was

Shot clean = 4.86

With a miss = 4.05

With a miss and a makeup shot = 4.21

This is a .16 differance

The differance seems to be of the same sevarity given the differance in the hit factor, between the two scenarios, or do I have that backwards?

My analysis is that the miss itself is more costly to the hit factor on El Pres, but the result of the make up shot is in of itself not worth much in the overall and not worth the possibility of making it worse.

[pjb45]

Make up with an A

Points Seconds Hit Factor

60 4 15

45 11.25

55 4.5 12.22222222

Your hit factor improved ~10%

If you did not get an A

Points Seconds Hit Factor

60 4 15

45 11.25

53 4.5 11.77777778

Excel is great!

Make up shot is not worth it most of the time.

El Pres is a different animal. Too many people practice this stage and requires a high hit factor to improve your classification. Definitely not worth it for El Pres IMO.

Edited January 21, 2011 by pjb45

[DyNo!]

Don't miss...

[John Z Sr]

Like DyNo said, don't miss, now my head hurts with all the math

[Joe4d]

On multi string COF's Strings are separately timed and separately scored.

Where does it say that?

I was the seperately timed part from from 1.2.2.1 , and the seperatley scored part from interpretation of 1.2.2.1., as you enter separate times, and separate scores which are then accumulated for a final stage score and time. I didnt see 6.1.1 offering a little clearer definition so much like the man with one leg longer than the other who undergoes surgery for the condition, I stand corrected.

[ima45dv8]

....so much like the man with one leg longer than the other who undergoes surgery for the condition, I stand corrected.

I like that. I may borrow it the next time "I stand corrected".

[Coach]

On these type of stages I try not to miss,and I don't take the extra shot even if I call a miss. If I am not good enough to get the A with the first shot I figure I am not good enough to get the A with the makeup fast enough to be worth the while.