What "he-man" Should Be

[Eddie Rhodes]

In 2003 a couple of major matches instituted a class called "He-Man" wherein competitors ran .308 rifles and .45 calibre pistols sans optics. The class was popular at those venues and has prompted matches in 2004 to begin their own "He-Man" class. I think "He-Man" as instituted has gone off track! I want the competitors, match directors and sponsors who participate in this forum to reconsider what "He-Man" should be.

"He-Man" is not about using specialized firearms and ammunition developed for competition, even though some of those specialized competitive items are very suited to particular situational needs. "He-Man" is not about a call to arms for "Tactical Teds" or patrol car "operators" from where they can pontificate about their expected daring-do. "He-Man" is all about shooting large, standard calibre, proven, powerful firearms that have a probable, potentially wide use in law enforcement, the military and civilian self-defense. "Proven, probable, potentially wide use" refers to firearms the aforementioned users will likely have available in the event of a sudden need, i.e. pistols carried concealed or in a duty rig; rifles and shotguns likely to be available for premise defense, building entry or carried in a vehicle for rapid deployment.

A "He-Man Rifle" is a semi-auto in at least .308 Winchester, with no more than a 20 round box magazine, with iron sights or one optic, no bipod, fitted with a sling or carrying strap, a compensator or flashhider configured in proportion to the profile of the barrel, a stock that allows for ambidextrous use, and firing full powered ammunition. A "He-Man Pistol" is at least a .45acp with a barrel no longer than 5.5", limited to a 10 round capacity, no optics, no compensators, and firing full powered ammunition. A "He-Man Shotgun" is a 12 gauge, pump or semi-auto, with a barrel/magazine tube no longer than 22", fitted with a carrying strap, no optics, no bipods, no loading tubes, no compensators or porting, and firing buckshot and slugs only.

A large 3-gun match with a properly configured "He-Man" class in addition to Open and Tactical class will offer about all there is to dedicated 3-gunners. The importance, however, of a properly configured "He-Man" is that it will allow those shooters with a more tactical or professional bent not only a forum in which to compete, but a forum to develop some equipment and techniques readily transferable to wide practical applications. Using the term "wide practical applications" is in no way a slight to anyone or any piece of equipment. It does not mean an Open class competitor wielding a scoped, high capacity, .38 SuperComp out of a skeletonized holster does not have the means or the sand to defend himself or others. It does mean that the chances of that equipment seeing widespread adoption by those employed to enforce laws or defend the country will not happen in the next couple of years. The term "wide practical applications" does not mean a .308 rifle should be limited to iron sights or a 12 gauge shotgun should be limited to a pump action allowed to shoot 2 3/4 dram #8 birdshot. Scopes on rifles are common sense. Semi-auto shotguns are proven and widely accepted, and, shotguns for this purpose only make sense firing buckshot and slugs. "He-Man" should be all about learning to use practical, widely available, and powerful firearms in the best school of all, modern 3-gun competition.

[Bucky]

A "He-Man Rifle" is a semi-auto in at least .308 Winchester, with no more than a 20 round box magazine, with iron sights or one optic, no bipod, fitted with a sling or carrying strap, a compensator or flashhider configured in proportion to the profile of the barrel, a stock that allows for ambidextrous use, and firing full powered ammunition.

Just a suggestion, if you're defining rules here, I'd change this to say no more than 20 in the magazine since the G3/HK 91 variants have 25 round magazines.

[PacMan]

Welcome to the forum Eddie! It's about time that one of the originators of the He Man class speaks up . I believe the term "He Man" has been widely perceived/understood as "me-Tarzan-take-beating, shooting-big-bores" rather than the explanation that you so eloquently stated. I do agree with you. Optic is not something of "space age" anymore, as some of the newly designed military arms now are sporting optics. The only caveat in this is the "full power" ammunition requirement, my guess is that to verify, the match would have to chrono competitors' ammo load.

HD

[bigsaxdog]

no optics, pump 12 gauge, single stack .45 w/ 7-8rd. mags. you can run the optics and auto shotguns in other classes. everyone wants to water down the challenge..... hell, as long as i'm puttin' in my $.02 worth, i think everybody should have to shoot garands!!

[Bill Sahlberg]

Eddie made several good points. I would like to see some "purity" of He-Man rules be adopted by all. My 2 cents says .308 or bigger rifle with optics, stay with a pump and 00 Buck, and shoot a real pistol....a 6 shot .45 or bigger revolver! All ammo MAJOR

[rhino]

Mr. Rhodes, of course, allows for either pump or self-loading shotguns in his concept.

At first, I could see the rationale for people who advocate pump guns only, but lately I think the reasoning is less compelling. In any event, if you champion pump shotguns, I don't understand why a self loading rifle of handgun are then "okay." It seems to be consistent, one would need a manually operated rifle (bolt, pump, lever, whatever) and perhaps a revolver or even single action revolver. That would at least be consistent.

[Hey QuicksDraw!]

I'm with Bigsaxdog-

no optics, pump 12 gauge, single stack .45 w/ 7-8rd. mags

Pure and basic. I'd might add that you had to be chompin on a see-gar while you ran the stages.

[kellyn]

I don't agree about the use of buckshot. Why? Not because I don't like to shoot it but 1) it's expensive; 2) it's not needed in 3 gun matches as regular ammo does just fine for 95%+ of shots; 3) regular ammo recoils about the same as low recoil buck and 4) it's not commonly available for competitors at local stores. Which means you have to ship or carry your ammo, which becomes a pain if you're flying. You can't just go to the local WalMart and buy ammo for the match.

You are also calling for the use of a power factor in matches which as yet don't have power factors which is going to increase the workload with chronographing etc. I know what "major" is but I'm not even sure what the definition of fullpowered ammo is. I shoot sissy 110s for most but not all He-man (I shoot 125 Noslers or 150 SMKs for longer ranges) and they are loaded on the warm side. Will they make major? Not quite but almost. Are they "full powered"? You bet. Is it a gamey load? Somewhat. But would it be a good duty load? I would think so particularly in realistic distances. The gelatin tests I've seen have shown the 110 bullet to be absolutely devastating.

I have not seen any really gamey equipment in He-man. Rifles tend to be either FALs or M1As with an occasional AR10. My rifle is stock except a skinny front sight and a Jakenator (which would not comply with your comp rule, sorry). Blaine's (the original He-Man) AR10 appeared relatively stock as well. The comps offered on factory .308s rifles (the new shorty M1A and some AR10s) would violate your rule as well. Are people supposed to hack those off?

Optics on the rifle? Well they are certainly practical and superior in the real world. But He-Man just seems like a place for irons only. Allowing optics will simply kill off the use of irons. .308 rifles traditionally used irons and I'd rather it stayed that way.

Pistol Magazine capacity. I don't really care but since these matches are geared toward highcap mags in tactical and open class, 10 rounds mags would seem to be the way to go.

Pump shotgun? It's got no place left to go. I think He-Man should be pump only, which means I'll have to buy one.

Rifle mag capacity. If this supposed to be geared toward "wide practical applications," what's wrong with 25 or 30 round or 40 round mags as long as they work? Mag capacity seems to have increased rather than decreased in the practical tactical world. I'd rather have a 30 rounder in my Dawn of the Dead rifle than a 20.

I have to disagree somewhat on the theme of He-Man. Much of the issues that you raise would seem to be appropriate for the Tactical class as well. Most police agencies and military units do NOT use the equipment which He-Man calls for. Most use equipment more in line with Tactical class. If we allow semi-auto tactical shotguns and the use of optics on the rifles, we are creating a class which is going to simply mirror tactical class. If that's the case, what's the point of a seperate class? To me, He-man is a throwback class to some more nostalgic but still cool equipment which would not otherwise be competitive. To make it so close to Tactical seems redundant.

I would like to see consistency between the matches though. Why does every single match have to have different rules? In Kelly's world He-Man would be

1) Iron sighted .308 or 30/06 or 7.5 Swiss or 7.62X54 rifle. No limit on mag capacity. Rifle should always have a sling.

2) .45 cal pistol in a practical tactical holster. Irons only. No comps. 10 round mag limit.

3) 12 gauge Pump shotgun. No more than 6 in magazine which is roughly equal to an 18 inch barrel (an 870 the way God intended). No optics, comps or speedloaders. No limits on barrel length. Let the stages punish long barrels.

4) Cigar and not one of those little sissy cigarette sized ones either.

[Mickster]

KellyN, BigSaxDog,

My sentiments exactly.

We put on 2 He-man matches so far with tremendous fanfare and accolades from all the participants.

What they wanted was:

Iron sighted .308 or 30-06 (FN's, M1A's, Garands and a couple AR10's were there).

.45 pistols with max 10 in the mag (mostly 1911's with a couple Glocks and one H&K were there).

Pump 12's with 5 max at the start of any stage (870's, Nova's and 1200's were there). I also had to cave and go out and buy a pump. Had no use for one until He-man came up.

As a side note, if some shooter showed up with a full power 8mm former French Foreign Legion gun he certainly would of been allowed to shoot it. The concept and intent of He-man should not be forgotten.

Pure and simple and a whole lot of fun.

[slowsure]

If I hade my way... which I dont but... He-Man would be:

1. .45 and up on hand gun with mag cap at 7-8. (No real he man would have 2 1/2 inches of something hangin out of the bottom of his 1911 gun!)

2. Rifle .308 and up mag cap at 20

3. Shotgun 12 ga PUMP no barrel lenght requirment. Why pump... you cant adjust recoil on a pump like you can on a semi-auto. No cream puff 1100's.

4. No optics on anything. HE-Men have the gift of perfect vision

My 02

[kurtm]

For what it's worth, Mr. Rhodes was the originator of the HE-MAN concept. We at Rocky Mountain 3-Gun took his idea and introduced the He-Man class. Out side of the optic, which I will delve into in a moment, We pretty much kept his idea as pure as possible. We should all thank Ed for this great new class that is growing by leaps and bounds!!

A few thoughts from the rules commity at RM3G.

SHOTGUNS

Buckshot and slugs...you bet!! For tacticle or social work...or any othere euphemisim you might want to use, all of us would carry buckshot and slugs. Shotgun can be pump or auto, as a 12ga is, whether you work it or it works itsself, still a power tool ( anothere Rhodesism )

Handguns:

Autoloaders of 45 cal 10 rounds

Revolvers of .41 cal and larger

Rifles: (we now can say rifle, not carbine)

308 or larger.

No optic..and here is where Eddie will disagree with us whole heartedly.

A few quick reasons no optics.

1. Out side of SR25s and AR-10 type rifles, there is just NO good way to mount a scope on most 308 and bigger battle rifles. All the mounts set the optic too high, all the mounts are way too expensive, and none of them maintain zero very well, or not at all. Why do you think the military welds the Brookfield mounts to M-14s?? If they don't they wont maintain zero because the mount loosens.

2. with an optic, most battle rifles become way too heavy/ and or top heavy. They may look cool and all, but in the test of time, most people elect to leave them home and carry a handier lighter rifle, or even the dispised black carbine ( in he-man class anyway). If this is a test of what you might carry, let's make it something you would carry...AR-10 type rifles aside. We wanted to call it HE-MAN not AR-10 class.

3. John Wayne and Audie Murphy didn't use optics and neather should we!

4. Rather than make this class an arms race we decided to make it a skills race.

Bucky: although a 30 round magazine was available for the G3/91, it is not common. the standard magazine for G3/91s is a 20 rounder....the 53/93 in .223 are the ones with a 25 round magazine and wouldn't be allowed in He-Man as it isn't in a large enough caliber.

[Sterling White]

Should we add a 45 lb pack to test agility and stamina? Or conduct 20 pushups and 15 setups after the buzzer? When I visualize a "he-man" the picture of Burt Gummer fighting Graboids with a very large - big caliber - assortment of weapons comes to mind! "We don't shoot no stinking sissy guns here boy"!

[George]

I heartily agree with Kelly on the need for standardization of He-Man, the ammo issues he brings up, and the pump shotgun being the right tool for this division. I would love to see USPSA pick up on this too.

BTW, the cigar is mandatory if your name is Sgt. Rock

--

Regards,

[kellyn]

What does the required use of buckshot in a match test? What skill is being compared between the shooters? Since everyone will use low recoil buck, their scores will be just the same as if they were using birdshot. This just seems to be a way to make the match more expensive to compete in. Or do we all have to use fullpowered buck and have the poor match officials scurry around to check everyone's buckshot. I always have some buck for longish or uncooperative poppers and that's certainly what I have for a social load but I just don't see why it should be required in a match.

Kurt, you forgot the FAL. It's easy to mount an optic on one with the DSA dustcover.

[bigsaxdog]

and 10 squat-thrusts w/a push-up before every course of fire..........

[ErikW]

If all of you were hosting He-Man matches tomorrow, I'd shoot kellyn's match with George.

Some ranges and/or matches don't allow buckshot and have a max birdshot size of #4 or so. (SMM3G?)

It seems as if Eddie is trying to re-practicalize 3 gun with his vision of He Man?

I guess He-Man should have R. Lee Ermey type range officers. IF YOU ARE FINISHED, MAGGOT, UNLOAD AND SHOW CLEAR. THAT WAS THE MOST PATHETIC DISPLAY OF SHOOTING I HAVE EVER SEEN! AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO CALL YOURSELF A COMPETITOR?

[kurtm]

Kelly:

Nope left out the FN, triing to be nice. Down sides. Scope once again too high. No cheek weld here, just a funky jaw/chin weld. Dust covers??? don't they have to slide to disassemble the rifle to clean it?? Slide=move= no zero hold. I have given the dust cover mount a very fair try, and while better than a gen 2 mount on a M1A, it still leaves A LOT to be desired. I still stand by my AR-10 statement!!

I still think we should be playing with buckshot for all the matches. It seems to me the only reason we have the #4s and lighter was to appease the range requierments of certain "less than forward thinking" clubs. I maintain to this day if a berm can contain pistol and rifle rounds, it will also contain buckshot and slugs. I have heard some of the most rediculous statements about buckshot. One of my favorites is that it is way to hard on the steel....and the guy who told me this said it with a straight face as he holstered his MAJOR 38 super... befor they lowered the P.F., and said his .38 super was much kinder to the steel...after all buckshot really dimples the heck out of it!! We were talking about rifle rated poppers that had been shot at 100 yds with 308 and 223, but no buckshot....."it's just too hard on the steel" Back to the point at hand I feel it test accuracy much more than a load of 8s twards a clay bird at 10-20 yards. KURTM

[PacMan]

I would have to agree with buckshots for matches. It does test your skills. One must know what the pattern is since you only got 9 pellets (big honking ones) to play with. It can be expensive, however.

With reference to removing the FAL cover/mount to clean, I have done it without removing the cover, the bolt/carrier just slides out the back. it's definitely harder, but doable.

[3GunF1Guy]

I don't shoot in the HE-MAN class so I just have one question? Is'nt that buckshot a SOB to hit clays with? Or at most matches do you not use the MGM poppers that throw clays?

[twix]

Does anyone else remember the Sgt. Rock comic when he was choking because he swallowed his cigar?

His sidekeck/corporal says," So what's the big deal? You swallow your cigar all the time."

Sgt. Rock says, "Yeah, but this time it was lit."

[George]

Hey Erik, "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!

Twix, yes I do remember that. Sgt. Rock was one of my favorite comics (nothing was easy in easy company). I'll say it again, I just can't see Sgt. Rock with anything but a pump shotgun. I wonder if a Thompson subgun could be substituted for the 1911 in He-Man to get the image right.

--

Regards,

[Helmut]

"guess He-Man should have R. Lee Ermey type range officers. IF YOU ARE FINISHED, MAGGOT, UNLOAD AND SHOW CLEAR. THAT WAS THE MOST PATHETIC DISPLAY OF SHOOTING I HAVE EVER SEEN! AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO CALL YOURSELF A COMPETITOR?"

erik,

i guess you have not shot a stage my brother and i have RO'd.......we will have PT also.....................hhhhaaaa!

[kellyn]

Don't forget buckshot includes #4 which has 3X as many pellets as 00. Much easier to hit clays with. Or now will He-Man require 000? Or just one big pellet?

As for the dustcover, I never removed it to clean. No Move=Keep Zero. Plus you can get check pads which raise the comb just enough. Or just mill the dustcover and bolt your ACOG right in there.

[PacMan]

I don't shoot in the HE-MAN class so I just have one question? Is'nt that buckshot a SOB to hit clays with? Or at most matches do you not use the MGM poppers that throw clays?

Yes, specially for non-wing shooters like me and yes, I hate those d@mn poppers that throw clays!!! Whose twisted mind did that setup come from??? On serious side, I think Eddie meant all steels to be shot with 00 buckshots and clay with either buck or bird shots, that's how they set it up in their Pueblo matches.

[Tom Freeman]

I will throw my .02 in.

Rifle. 308 or larger. No mag capacity restrictions. No optics. Comps allowed that follow USPSA's rule on limited class. Sling mandatory.

Shotgun. 12 gauge. Pump. No more than 6 rounds in the gun at any one time. No ports/comps or scopes. Shoot slug and buck when required by course design. Sling mandatory. I could be swayed to auto, but I just can’t see John Wayne shooting an auto.

Pistol. 45 for autos, 357 and larger for revos. No more than 11 (10+1) rounds in the gun at any one time. Double stack or single stack. No scopes, ports or comps. Carry type holster. Pistol must be worn for duration of match.

Ammo requirements. Full powered equivalent. If someone wants to shoot mouse fart ammo, let them have their hollow victory. Then rename his plaque the He-She Man and shun him.

I would like Michael Voigt, Dan Furbee, Blane West, Kyle Lamb and possibly Mike Gibson hash this stuff out. This would allow those with deep pockets to build a dedicated set of He-Man guns and know that they can go to any big match and be legal.