What "he-man" Should Be

[uscbigdawg]

I wouldn't say that the Garand isn't down in He-Man. I was squadded with Mike Gibson at SMM3G this year. In a word...WOW! It was pretty cool watching him step to the line a bandoleer full of clips. And, that bad boy was pumpin' them out too. I had the distinct pleasure (yes there's all kinds of sarcasm here) of entering the dark house after he shot and got a lung full of whatever he was shooting.

He-Man in my humble opinion:

Rifle: .308 or larger, iron sights only

Shotgun: 12 gauge only, pump only

Pistol: .45 or larger with a max of 8 rounds in the gun.

Rich

[GvU]

Yes, real quantaties of powder!

See me in the Denmark/ Borris rifle-match for no bandoleer at all. It works as long as the clips stay in place. Very vigorous movement caused me to loose some clips and resulted in a very long time. Any info on bandoleers? I do have an ammo beld but it's far to slow.

John

[bluker1]

Would I be able to compete with my USAS-12?

[JWK]

I'll stand with Eddie Rhodes. The only deviation would be to load 8 in the rifle mags so the

M1 Garrand can play on a level field.

Hell for that matter make the HE MAN an 888 match.

[Jasonub]

heloooo guys he man has a sword so....

its these guns and a 25 pound sword that can cut poppers into 2

[gunther]

Just set the match up so it is 8 rd neutral, no more than 8 rds fired from any one position. Duh

[P.E. Kelley]

In 2003 a couple of major matches instituted a class called "He-Man" wherein competitors ran .308 rifles and .45 calibre pistols sans optics. The class was popular at those venues and has prompted matches in 2004 to begin their own "He-Man" class. I think "He-Man" as instituted has gone off track! I want the competitors, match directors and sponsors who participate in this forum to reconsider what "He-Man" should be.

"He-Man" is not about using specialized firearms and ammunition developed for competition, even though some of those specialized competitive items are very suited to particular situational needs. "He-Man" is not about a call to arms for "Tactical Teds" or patrol car "operators" from where they can pontificate about their expected daring-do. "He-Man" is all about shooting large, standard calibre, proven, powerful firearms that have a probable, potentially wide use in law enforcement, the military and civilian self-defense. "Proven, probable, potentially wide use" refers to firearms the aforementioned users will likely have available in the event of a sudden need, i.e. pistols carried concealed or in a duty rig; rifles and shotguns likely to be available for premise defense, building entry or carried in a vehicle for rapid deployment.

A "He-Man Rifle" is a semi-auto in at least .308 Winchester, with no more than a 20 round box magazine, with iron sights or one optic, no bipod, fitted with a sling or carrying strap, a compensator or flashhider configured in proportion to the profile of the barrel, a stock that allows for ambidextrous use, and firing full powered ammunition. A "He-Man Pistol" is at least a .45acp with a barrel no longer than 5.5", limited to a 10 round capacity, no optics, no compensators, and firing full powered ammunition. A "He-Man Shotgun" is a 12 gauge, pump or semi-auto, with a barrel/magazine tube no longer than 22", fitted with a carrying strap, no optics, no bipods, no loading tubes, no compensators or porting, and firing buckshot and slugs only.

A large 3-gun match with a properly configured "He-Man" class in addition to Open and Tactical class will offer about all there is to dedicated 3-gunners. The importance, however, of a properly configured "He-Man" is that it will allow those shooters with a more tactical or professional bent not only a forum in which to compete, but a forum to develop some equipment and techniques readily transferable to wide practical applications. Using the term "wide practical applications" is in no way a slight to anyone or any piece of equipment. It does not mean an Open class competitor wielding a scoped, high capacity, .38 SuperComp out of a skeletonized holster does not have the means or the sand to defend himself or others. It does mean that the chances of that equipment seeing widespread adoption by those employed to enforce laws or defend the country will not happen in the next couple of years. The term "wide practical applications" does not mean a .308 rifle should be limited to iron sights or a 12 gauge shotgun should be limited to a pump action allowed to shoot 2 3/4 dram #8 birdshot. Scopes on rifles are common sense. Semi-auto shotguns are proven and widely accepted, and, shotguns for this purpose only make sense firing buckshot and slugs. "He-Man" should be all about learning to use practical, widely available, and powerful firearms in the best school of all, modern 3-gun competition.

I quote this to bring the words of the man behind He-Man (Heavy Metal) back to the front.

[1chota]

I started shooting He-Man in 2005 after watching Eddie shoot. As a retired LEO I had an M1A, 12 ga. 870 and a 1911.

I thought it was (and is) a lot of fun. I did go to scope because of old age eyes in 2008.

I don't see many matches where buckshot is used, tho. Some stages might have a short set of targets where buckshot is permitted, but not many.

I might even try the M1 Garand at the He-Man match in Raton. We'll see.

Stay safe, all.

[TonytheTiger]

Just as long as no one tries to bring back the buck and slug only rules. That would be another big nail in the coffin. Hell, you could build the whole coffin and have a handful of nails left for a nice birdhouse.

[PacMan]

In 2003 a couple of major matches instituted a class called "He-Man" wherein competitors ran .308 rifles and .45 calibre pistols sans optics. The class was popular at those venues and has prompted matches in 2004 to begin their own "He-Man" class. I think "He-Man" as instituted has gone off track! I want the competitors, match directors and sponsors who participate in this forum to reconsider what "He-Man" should be.

The term "wide practical applications" does not mean a .308 rifle should be limited to iron sights or a 12 gauge shotgun should be limited to a pump action allowed to shoot 2 3/4 dram #8 birdshot. Scopes on rifles are common sense. Semi-auto shotguns are proven and widely accepted, and, shotguns for this purpose only make sense firing buckshot and slugs. "He-Man" should be all about learning to use practical, widely available, and powerful firearms in the best school of all, modern 3-gun competition.

Eddie's words ten years after still ring true!

Edited December 22, 2014 by PacMan

[Alaskapopo]

nevermind

Edited December 23, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[dcloudy777]

Heavy Optics killed it, IMHO.

[RiggerJJ]

Heavy Optics killed it, IMHO.

Not dead yet, but if HO is offered at many more matches than it is now, then it could...

And it pisses me off too. HO is just a cop out for those who want to avoid the competition in TO. A 308 and a pea shooter 9mm in the same division? plleeezze...

Just get a 45 and a pump, and try HMO!

jj

[Dan Sierpina]

Don't forget the talk of other "Major" calibers in the rifle. How about a new division for those, "Metro Metal" ?

[toothandnail]

I would shoot HM, except for the single stack 9 round limit for pistol, I think many now allow D stack but still limited to 9, There were quite a few that specified single stack only a few years ago.

I haven't checked lately

Why would I buy a single stack pistol now days?

[Dan Sierpina]

All I have seen for requirements is .45 Cal, (or .44 if you want to use a wheel gun), and 10 rounds in a mag. Single stack mag limit is 170MM and double stack, 140.

This bugs me, since I'm old and have single stack mags that fit the 170 mm gage and hold 11 rounds. Any other division can stick as many rounds as they can as long as the mag fits the gage.

[RiggerJJ]

I would shoot HM, except for the single stack 9 round limit for pistol, I think many now allow D stack but still limited to 9, There were quite a few that specified single stack only a few years ago.

I haven't checked lately

Why would I buy a single stack pistol now days?

Why buy a single stack? USPSA single stack division I guess...

Matt, guess you haven't looked lately, but as Dan says, most HM rules that I know of say the pistol requirements are 45, 10 rounds, period. roughly about 1/2 of the HM shooters I know use SS, but the others are a mixture of everything under the sun, probably most use a striker fired double stack. And most matches are 10 rounds in mags.

jj

[toothandnail]

Good to know, like I said I haven't checked in a few years, I may have to give it a go one of these days.

[Alaskapopo]

Heavy Optics killed it, IMHO.

Not dead yet, but if HO is offered at many more matches than it is now, then it could...

And it pisses me off too. HO is just a cop out for those who want to avoid the competition in TO. A 308 and a pea shooter 9mm in the same division? plleeezze...

Just get a 45 and a pump, and try HMO!

jj

Or maybe they just like shooting .308 rifles. I am not an iron sighted rifle fan. For me I would like to see Heavy Optics with pistols being .45 acp and semi auto shotguns.

Pat

[Dan Sierpina]

FNH 3 Gun fits that equipment set.

[RiggerJJ]

Heavy Optics killed it, IMHO.

Not dead yet, but if HO is offered at many more matches than it is now, then it could...

And it pisses me off too. HO is just a cop out for those who want to avoid the competition in TO. A 308 and a pea shooter 9mm in the same division? plleeezze...

Just get a 45 and a pump, and try HMO!

jj

Or maybe they just like shooting .308 rifles. I am not an iron sighted rifle fan. For me I would like to see Heavy Optics with pistols being .45 acp and semi auto shotguns.

Pat

That's what I was talking about, Pat, HMO.

I am TOTALLY against a division that has a 308 rifle and 9mm pistol.

Granted, some prefer scopes. The iron/1x crowd is small, but dedicated. I have a ball shooting irons on a 308, but it's not for everyone.

jj

Edited December 26, 2014 by RiggerJJ

[co-exprs]

Heavy Optics killed it, IMHO.

Not dead yet, but if HO is offered at many more matches than it is now, then it could...

And it pisses me off too. HO is just a cop out for those who want to avoid the competition in TO. A 308 and a pea shooter 9mm in the same division? plleeezze...

Just get a 45 and a pump, and try HMO!

jj

Or maybe they just like shooting .308 rifles. I am not an iron sighted rifle fan. For me I would like to see Heavy Optics with pistols being .45 acp and semi auto shotguns.

Pat

That's what I was talking about, Pat, HMO.

I am TOTALLY against a division that has a 308 rifle and 9mm pistol.

Granted, some prefer scopes. The iron/1x crowd is small, but dedicated. I have a ball shooting irons on a 308, but it's not for everyone.

jj

I am in the camp of liking HeMan rules just the way they are. The platforms and rules were designed to cater to those who are looking for a different flavor of shooting and a different set of challenges. I don't mind the round count limitations because everyone in the division has to play by the same rules and are forced to deal with the same challenges. He Man is what it should be. I am willing to concede however that it isn't very popular and would be willing to compromise a few things if I thought it would make the division more popular. 308's, 45's and 12ga pumps are a must to maintain the intent of the division design, which is heavier recoil. A pump gun is the least expensive part of the puzzle and isn't going to break anyone's bank. There are lots of cost effective 45's on the market and for every 1911 fan there are 2 Glock fans. You don't need a $2000 1911 to be competitive in the division. Pat Kelley has been rocking a Glock since before I began shooting 3 gun and Kuan Watson is probably the second most accomplished HM shooter and wins with an M&P. There are two real barriers to the growth of the division. The first is the cost of a quality 308 rifle and the cost of 308 ammo. The second is that 3gun has significantly changed flavor over the past several years. It's getting faster and more intense, glamorized by television. New shooters come in with fantasies of rockin stages like a porn star. HM divisions with the guns and magazine limitations just don't feel fast. Doesn't matter how fast we actually run stages, it just doesn't feel fast. We can't do anything about the cost of 308's and ammo. We could play with magazine limits to make things feel a little faster. I'm not opposed to increasing magazine limits, but there are no easy solutions here. Half of the competitors out there run AR10 type rifles, but the other half run a mix of M1A's FAL's and even some HK's. We could probably get away with 25 round 308 mags, but any more and we risk alienating the guys with guns that can't get more than 20rd mags. Pistols are actually a little more flexible and I really don't think that raising the magazine limit to 14 will bother most of the single stack guys. The few who are competitive enough to care, will either deal with it or migrate to a platform allowing more than 10rds.

I noticed that at SMM3G this year, there were 30+ in HM Iron, while at HeMan Nats there were only 4. There were precision shots, long range shots out to 425 and even a plate rack at 200yds with no shoots laced into the rack. Magazine limits were the same, so why the better attendance? Not totally sure, but they allowed cinched mags without any configuration rules and they allowed 1x dots. I gotta tell ya... I take great pride in my iron sight skills, but I have more fun shooting with 1x glass. Don't get me wrong... HeMan Nats is still my favorite match of the year, but I really enjoyed shooting with 1x glass at SMM3G and RM3G this year. It just felt more like racing. Cinched 25 round mags and 1x glass would make things feel more main stream without violating the intent of the division. Same with the 45. Going to 14rd mags or even 140mm mags would keep people shooting heavy recoil, but allow things to feel a little more main stream. Just have to decide how much we are willing to piss off the single stackers. I honestly don't care one way or the other, so long as the division intent is maintained... which is heavier recoil platforms.

Major power factor is difficult, because it forces chorograph onto only the heavies. One more thing for match directors to worry about in a shooting venue which is already difficult to develop and run smoothly. In addition, it wouldn't gain much for the shooting populace. It costs as much or more to load any of the intermediate cartridges which might be considered for competitive use. 223 is cheaper, only because of the industry volumes. In the end the major cost variance in running 308 is only $30-$40 per major match. It's practicing with 308 that kills the pocket book and this cost would not be avoided if running some other caliber that could safely make major PF.

So I think the real answer to saving or even grown heavy divisions is to extend the fun factor without violating the heavy recoil intent of the division. Just my opinion and it ain't worth much, but there it is.

[P.E. Kelley]

I still think that this will improve the participation in the Heavies.

How about just within HM one hit for rifle and pistol?

How about after that....we make HM one SCORED division with two classes of equipment.

HM Optics 20/308 Rifle 10/45 Pistol and 8+1 Auto Shotguns (12 bore)

HM Iron (1x) No mag capacity restriction/308 Rifle 140MM mag length max/45 Pistol 8+1(at start) Pump (12 bore)

I know I have chatted with a couple of HM shooters that are NOT entrenched in one way or another and our

opinion was neither class of equipment had an advantage so both would be viable.

I for one would run the HM (1x) Iron against the HM Optics. for the win.

[MickB]

Patrick,

I like the concept above, but I would suggest instead of 1 hit anywhere, it be modified to 1 hit in A/B/C zones, with one D being considered an FTN.

It should reduce the spray factor a little and make the shooter think about whether they need that backup shot or not...

Mick

[Stlhead]

Pat, I love your plan, I just don't think it will get more guys into the division. Combining the two makes perfect sense. I do think that the pump shotgun needs one or two extra rounds at the start to cover the auto gap, and that there should be a minimum 155 grain bullet weight for all rifle rounds, otherwise you are on the right track.