What "he-man" Should Be

[kellyn]

Tom, what is "fullpowered equivalent"? Are you promoting a power factor? if so, what kind?

[Tom Freeman]

Full powered ammo, to me, means factory type/power factor.

I think the shooters could police each other as to who is using light ammo.

I dont want to see any power factor floors set for non-USPSA matches. USPSA might want some power factors. Running a chrono at a match is just one less stage to shoot as they are time killers.

The USPSA Chronodude shoots at our club and last I heard they are planning on chronoing all three guns in Reno this year. I would rather shoot another stage instead of standing in line praying for fast heavy bullets.

[rhino]

Shotgun. 12 gauge. Pump. No more than 6 rounds in the gun at any one time.

Why six rounds? Most pump guns hold 4+1 from the factory. If you're going to set it on the low side, five rounds makes more sense to me.

[kellyn]

Tom, with all respect, I have to disagree.

If you are not willing to chrono then there is no way to enforce the rule. Sure it's a huge pain in the ass but there is no other way to enforce it. Competitors policing each other? I don't think that will work either. I don't want to get involved in watching a competitor and saying "your splits are too fast" or "your muzzle is not rising enough." And I certainly don't want some other shooter telling me the same stuff.

People are willing to shoot 110 grain bullets at 1000 fps if its means they will win. Even if it means taking grief from some other shooters. I'll be shooting 110 or 125 grain bullets (albiet with a full charge) until it is illegal under the rules. Why? Because they kick less and shoot flat enough for the distances in normal 3 gunning. Am I cheating or violating the spirit of the rules? I don't think so. I will happily comply with whatever rules are laid down as long as they make sense. If they don't then I won't play (which is why I don't shoot IDPA). If we need a power factor then so be it. My ammo will be loaded to meet it. But we can't have it both ways: no power factor/chronoing AND a requirement for manly/hardrecoiling/will penetrate 10 CHICOM Infantrymen/Sgt. Rock ammo.

Currently, if a person wants to make his .308 into a .30 carbine more power to them. If they want to have a .30 carbineesque short range load and a manly longrange 155 grain load, I say that person is simply the smartest competitor who has evaluated the rules better than anyone else. I don't see it as a hollow victory if it was done in compliance with the rules.

Kurt, I did not think you were dissing the FAL.

[kurtm]

Kelly:

I am not dissing the DSA/FAL family. I still feel that scoping one is just another compromise, and really have yet to see one hold a good hard zero. AR-10s and SR-25s are really about the only type that take an optic well, and strudy enough in the mounting system to keep a zero. I like the one big pellet idea...kind of like a slug, only sounds friendlier

As for the shotgun deal, almost all military shotguns these days have an extention, even the Marine Corp's failed Mosberg adventure mandated a extended tube! Many police forces allow extended tubes on the 870s these days, so I don't feel that restricting to 5 or 6 rounds means anything. KURTM

[AH6IP]

Ya know, its a game. Let's use dual GAU-19's (.50 cal)for the full power requirements. To hell with them 10 pound rockets, let's go with the 17 pounders. OK, I'm ramblin-

I guess what it really boils down to is the match director and what he wants us all to play with. The only way to "police" the ammo requirements would be to have the MD provide all the ammo(yea, right). I just hate to see requirements that prevents others from getting to play, just because they don't own that type of blaster.

[Tom Freeman]

Rhino, I just picked six because thats how many my 1897 and 870 hold. Neither looks like it is too extended or "gamey." Just a straight forward, short barreled, pump gun.

Kelly, now that you mention it I guess I had not thought of those that will water down their ammo if there is no chrono requirement. That being the case, I vote to toss the power factor requirement and just leave it at 308 or larger.

Even though I shoot with Eddie a lot, I am still naive about some things.

[Jim Norman]

On the subjest of 10 Squat-Thrusts and Push-up before the course of fire.

Last year I shot in a match that had you do 50 Push-ups tand then do a run through a certain "Russian" theatre to clear out the terrorists. 50 quick push-ups, off the clock, It does get your heart pumping, a bit! But it is supposed to still be somewhat about the shooting and this is a vit much for some of us 50 somethings.

By the way. I am all in favor of the way Dennis Heath proposes the NC Recon. Carry your pack and your long gun all the time while you shoot, you can take off the pack during stand-downs between stages. No resupply except for water, carry all your ammo and food and mags and...

Jim

[Barrettone]

Well Fellas, I might as well put my 2 lincolns in here. As far as I see it, we have three major problems when it comes to my club. Some of this has already been alleviated to in previous posts, but oh well, here goes: First, we run under USPSA, and our scoring program (EZWINSCORE) would play hell with getting results, and if you think we're going to handscore, yer crazy. USPSA already took on a tactical division, and getting them to create another would be a herculean (or HE-Man?) type of task. If we want our sanctioning, we've gotta adhere to the rules. Three gun has become rogue enough with using illegal targets (ie bowling pins, non-conforming plates, illegal course design, etc...), without adding an entire DIVISION on a whim. Sorry, but these are the rules we live and die by, if you want it changed, get it in the rule book...good luck. Second, buckshot IS harder on steel (respect given to Kurt, of course). You are hitting it 4-9 times as much as a single pistol would, but more importantly, the steel slams down so much more violently (cool to watch, but popper fixin' is NO FUN) and this additional fatigue warps the plates significantly. Remember, not all clubs can afford rifle steel, and the jury is still out on the effects buckshot has on them over a pistol round. Third, buckshot is damned expensive. It's not like this sport is cheap to begin with, and even with reloading (if your lucky enough to have a press), is inherently costly. Newbies MIGHT be discouraged as some of these guns are entry level into 3-gun. Even current shooters who are on the brink of not being able to afford this sport as it is, would surely be priced out of the division (hell, the entry fee to these things is bad enough). In short, all this chat will not lead to uniformity, you have to get it in writing, come up with scoring procedures, and get EVERYBODY to adopt it. While I know that not everybody subjects themselves to USPSA's rules, they are at the forefront of the sport, and if you want these changes to be credible, I'm afraid you almost have to go through them to affect that change. This 3-Gun stuff is a blast, but going from match to match, and not knowing what rules we're playing by on a consistent basis really sucks. Again just my .02. I feel the heat of the flames a-comin'....

Respect to all,

Jeff

[Sterling White]

Second, buckshot IS harder on steel (respect given to Kurt, of course).  You are hitting it 4-9 times as much as a single pistol would, but more importantly, the steel slams down so much more violently (cool to watch, but popper fixin' is NO FUN) and this additional fatigue warps the plates significantly.  Remember, not all clubs can afford rifle steel, and the jury is still out on the effects buckshot has on them over a pistol round.  Third, buckshot is damned expensive.  It's not like this sport is cheap to begin with, and even with reloading (if your lucky enough to have a press), is inherently costly.  Newbies MIGHT be discouraged as some of these guns are entry level into 3-gun.  Even current shooters who are on the brink of not being able to afford this sport as it is, would surely be priced out of the division (hell, the entry fee to these things is bad enough).  In short, all this chat will not lead to uniformity, you have to get it in writing, come up with scoring procedures, and get EVERYBODY to adopt it.  While I know that not everybody subjects themselves to USPSA's rules, they are at the forefront of the sport, and if you want these changes to be credible, I'm afraid you almost have to go through them to affect that change.

- 38 super hits a hell of a lot harder than buckshot (submit this to myth busters!)

- slams down violently can be removed with an old tire

- using quality material to construct the poppers and plates coupled with the right welding processes will increase the likelyhood of longevity of the targets

- expense is all relative to the hobby...you have the choice to support your habit or not

- scoring is simple because everyone shoots major

- evolution of a sport takes time!

[kurtm]

Good point about the "slamin steel" effect. I was just looking at the impact on the plate/popper it'sself. Yea you do hit it 4-9 times more but each hit is way less than major power factor each...per pellet, but it does sure slam it down! Remiknds me, it's time to turn around some of our poppers As for the prohibitive cost... just look to Cowboy Action shooting, some of their clothes cost more than a J.P. with a TA-11 on it. It is all relative! at any match, whether it be USPSA or IMA, or Kyles, or MGM, a basic pistol, rifle, and shotgun can always be used. It will always be legal! It is the qwest for that little edge that costs the money. Kind of like Cowboy boots with tennis shoe soles. I think most venues that offer Iron Man have been triing to keep it a "basic" class. KURTM

[Overkill]

I agree with most but on the pistol you MUST allow 10mm. The 10 is easily as He-Man as the 45.

I also think you should mandate a concealment or duty type holster that is worn from set-up to tear down.

[Barrettone]

gmw2b:

I do not in any way say that EACH impact is equal to or greater than any individual pistol hit. Without getting into a long, drawn-out dissertation on metallurgy, and fatigue and stress formulas, I can explain it simply in laymans terms: When steel is beaten, (force withstanding), in any quantitative manner, it is fatigued, and this prolonged and exponentially greater amount of SURFACE FORCE (larger area, not singular strikes), it DOES have more effect as it relates to the breakdown of the composite material (steel). As for the old tire idea...it is a good one, that we use on all our poppers, but the astronomical force at which it hits, still causes plate distortion (curved poppers) more quickly than what the bullet impacts cause (even though, yes, bullet impacts largely cause this as well). We have over 50 poppers, and use them most every match, so I feel that we know how to judge steels fatigue rates as it relates to this topic. You are correct, however, that good design can alleviate some of these problems, but I'm sorry to say, that not ALL clubs have the resources or the time to dedicate to this proposition. As for supporting ones habit, I agree, we all have choices, it is mostly the newbie that I am looking out for, and would simply like to see all divisions as readily accessible to everyone as we can get them...just my opinion (I highly doubt open will ever be cheap). As for evolution taking time, you are correct, it does. It is the interim that is painful, as there are obviously (read above posts), many ideas of what a TRUE He-Man match should consist of. Getting all these sanctioning bodies to agree would be quite difficult. Uniformity breeds confidence in the sport (at least that is what I think). Variety is the spice of life, don't get me wrong...It is just that I feel that if 3-Gun is to grow, some more standardized guidelines need to be implemented to instill confidence in our competitors, so that they know what FORMAT to expect going into a match. He-Man should automatically bring to mind a set of STANDARDIZED guidelines that all follow, so that a competitor doesn't have to track down the MD before he comes to the match, just to find out their definition of it is. If anything, hopefully all this drivel we are spewing causes some steps to be taken to lead us to some common resolve. Thanks for all of your input. I continue to learn!!!

Jeff

[Bob Hostetter]

1) .308's or larger, no comps or scopes, 20 round mags.

2) 12ga, pumps only, buckshot and slugs

3) 45 cal or larger in the pistol, maxi 8 plus 1

[Matt]

I agree completely with Kelly's assesment of the rules. I was very excited to see our State Champ match this year offer a "He-man" class, as I always shoot the FAL, 870, and Glock .45 anyway. I was VERY disappointed to learn that my glock, about the most stripped down, basic gun you can get, would not be allowed because it was not single-stack?!?!?! So that means a tricked out 1911 can be "he-man", but my bone stock, butt-ugly Glock is not

I don't think I'll be attending that match this year......

[Overkill]

Yeah, and a most un Game'er like 10mm Model 29 glock, putting a higher power factor down range than most 45's, is not He-man either.

[kurtm]

You mean like the attenuated 10mm loads people would start using?? Sounds like a long case S&W .40....sorry no 10mm. KURTM

[Overkill]

Its not any harder to down load a 45 than the 10.

How bout a power factor minimum of 200. 45 and 10 can make that withought any trouble and 40 Smith cant.

[kurtm]

[Jim Norman]

Well Fellas, I might as well put my 2 lincolns in here. As far as I see it, we have three major problems when it comes to my club. Some of this has already been alleviated to in previous posts, but oh well, here goes: First, we run under USPSA, and our scoring program (EZWINSCORE) would play hell with getting results, and if you think we're going to handscore, yer crazy.

Scoring is not all that hard. There are several ways to do it and they all have pluses and minuses.

You can simply score USPSA and use the results. Foreget three guns, just consider weather the competitor is Major or minor and run with it.

You can weight the scores major minor, it takes a bit more work during input and you have to label the targets, R1, R2 R3 and P1, P2 and so on.

When you finish the input, you have additional considerations, are all the stages equal in the match? This is where time-plus scoring can a good match real fast. As long as all the stages are roughly equal in the real times that competitors turn in, you are OK and it is the fastest way. BUT if you have rifle stage or some other problem stage that has most competitors at say 180-230 seconds and some hotshot runs it is 85 seconds, he has probably just won the match, unless he really screws up bigtime. What we do and this will work either with Hit factor or Tim, is to runthe percentages and to use them as the points, all stages are worth 100 points, just total them up. Speed shoot, 10 rounds, real close, same value as a rifle course that takes 180 seconds. You have to have a good skill balance this way.

You can also simply assign points 1 for first, 2 for second and so on, but there are a couple problems that arse here. If 1st and 2nd are separated by say 20%, this only separates them 1 point. Being much better than the rest should get you more points, that is why I like the percentage as points method.

Jim Norman

[gunther]

Why not add a side match too, Manually Operated Rifle but it has to be .50 cal. or larger.

If the rifle is going to .308 or larger and no optics, no comps and has to retain the factory configuration. (production gun) Oh yeah a sling too.

And the shotgun has to be a pump that can only carry 5 or 6 rds. no optics, no comps, no porting, no speedloaders. (production gun) Oh yeah a sling too.

Then why not a production pistol .44 cal. /.45 cal. or larger, double action first shot,(no 1911's) no optics, no comps, no more than 10 rds in mag, no concealment holsters, only tactical or duty rigs. Oh yeah attach a lanyard to that pistol.

[gunther]

Not He-man, What "IRON MAN" should be.

[rhino]

I just had an idea about He-Man rifle ... if you limit the number of rounds loaded in the rifle to eight (or even ten), then the M1 Garand, the ultimate He-Man battle rifle, will have a place in the 3-Gun World.

Actually, if you limit pistol to 10 rounds, why not rifle too to be consistent? And then rules could be the same all across the country, even in states where standard capacity mags are no longer legally available. And the venerable M1 would only be "down" a couple of rounds instead of 12.

[GvU]

Single stack (more or less 1911's), 1897 and 870, M1 etc. Don't you mean antiques instead of he-man / iron-man?

DVC, John

[AH6IP]

Hey Kurt and Kelly-

How about a He-Man match, not just a division? We could have Limited and Tactical, with Tactical allowing a scope, semi-auto shotgun, and any pistol .45 and bigger, 10rnds. max. Limited would be iron sights, pump shotgun, and 1911 type single stack, 10 rnds too.

Of course, all rifles .308 or larger(no AK's or their caliber) 12 ga for shotguns. Buckshot is optional, but "HIGHLY" recommended. And if you had $5000 added money, plus an excellent prize table, as they said in Field of Dreams-build it and they will come!!