kellyn Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 No reason to chuck it. It is not the competitors' fault that the match staff presented a stage which under their own rules requires the shooters to eat a bunch of FTNs to win the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 No reason to chuck it. It is not the competitors' fault that the match staff presented a stage which under their own rules requires the shooters to eat a bunch of FTNs to win the stage. +1. Its not really that different from deciding to shoot outside the shooting box and eat a procedural or leaving a couple of the 300y larues standing... Would doing that get stages thrown out as well? Should all stages where people decide its better for their score to eat a penalty at some point get thrown out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THM7 Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 So basically you are saying take three shots at each target (engaged 3x) and take the Un-hit penalty for each shot fired? So if you hit it twice you get +10, hit it once +20, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted March 26, 2011 Author Share Posted March 26, 2011 No reason to chuck it. It is not the competitors' fault that the match staff presented a stage which under their own rules requires the shooters to eat a bunch of FTNs to win the stage. Agree 100%. Just too bad the stage was designed that way...did end up saving a bunch of expensive Noslers... +1. Its not really that different from deciding to shoot outside the shooting box and eat a procedural or leaving a couple of the 300y larues standing... Would doing that get stages thrown out as well? Should all stages where people decide its better for their score to eat a penalty at some point get thrown out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruyere Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 No reason to chuck it. It is not the competitors' fault that the match staff presented a stage which under their own rules requires the shooters to eat a bunch of FTNs to win the stage. I shot that stage in 160 sec. Hit every target 3x. Had a blast on the stage. I may not have "won", but it was fun! I am curious, why do people want to win the stage over really shooting the stage? Is it the $ or the endorsements? Are non-sponsored shooters doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Yes, it's always the $$$$$$ ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 I'm a little slow. Would someone please explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 I'm a little slow. Would someone please explain? Outerlimits called it "wack a mole". I am guessing they had some sort of mechanized targets that you were supposed to engage 3x but it looks like the shooters found out it was quicker to take the miss penalties. I am pretty sure we will hear more about this. There is one more video on YouTube but it too is stage 1. Better view of the targets than the first one. Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-=VILLAMOR=- Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 (edited) I'm a little slow. Would someone please explain? I'm guessing that it is a stage where some shooters found it more beneficial to fire just enough shots at a hard to hit target and get a +5 penalty each for the miss without the FTE. For example, a stage has 3 hard to get targets that some competitors estimated that it would take them over 15 seconds to engage and neutralize. But by "engaging" the targets quickly and missing, they would avoid the FTEs and they would only get the +15 seconds penalty plus the time to take quick shots at the targets. Some does that in an attempt to win the stage. And sometimes they do win the stage. Some would argue that it is gaming, others would argue that it is playing the stage smart. ***Edited as I intended to write FTE, not FTN*** Edited March 26, 2011 by -=VILLAMOR=- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Are those supposed to be grenades in the video ?? I thought the stage was a remake of High Plains Drifter ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasSean Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 They threw it out this morning halfway through our squad. Called it a "safety issue". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted March 26, 2011 Author Share Posted March 26, 2011 Great stages, but got a trip to Dairy Queen 1st stage this morning. Guess it had to happen sometime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 (edited) They threw it out this morning halfway through our squad. Called it a "safety issue". Unfortunately this is correct. Here's the scoop: Many of the competitors approached this stage as I had intended, engaging the pop up army targets as they appeared until they were neutralized. With brief and unpredictable exposures of targets out to 300 yards, this was an extremely challenging but also very enjoyable stage. Most of those folks came off the stage grinning from ear to ear. Times typically ran in the 90-220 second range. The army target system ran great. On Friday morning one of the squads worked out the optimal way to complete the stage was to engage each target on the first exposure cycle as fast as possible, then quit whether you hit the targets or not. Eating the multiple FTH and FTN penalties still left folks ahead of the game. Now, while certain unkind people might call this gamesmanship, I recognize it as my failing for not spotting this pitfall earlier. Mea culpa. Despite this becoming an obvious "ooooops", we allowed the stage to continue so competitors would have the chance to enjoy it. The safety problem arose late in the day when some, shall we say, less experienced shooters chose to emulate this approach to the stage. Unfortunately,because of the fast target exposures involved, several competitors shot beyond their ability and were unable to keep their shots safely contained in the established berms. After careful review of the risks, the RM and MD made the only call they could - they pulled this stage from the match for safety reasons. Given this decision, we had to completely shut down the stage - nobody else will get to shoot it, even for fun I apologize to everyone who did not get to enjoy this stage, and hope the rest of the match is adequate compensation. Edited March 26, 2011 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruyere Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 They threw it out this morning halfway through our squad. Called it a "safety issue". Unfortunately this is correct. Here's the scoop: Many of the competitors approached this stage as I had intended, engaging the pop up army targets as they appeared until they were neutralized. With brief and unpredictable exposures of targets out to 300 yards, this was an extremely challenging but also very enjoyable stage. Most of those folks came off the stage grinning from ear to ear. Times typically ran in the 90-220 second range. The army target system ran great. On Friday morning one of the squads worked out the optimal way to complete the stage was to engage each target on the first exposure cycle as fast as possible, then quit whether you hit the targets or not. Eating the multiple FTH and FTN penalties still left folks ahead of the game. Now, while certain unkind people might call this gamesmanship, I recognize it as my failing for not spotting this pitfall earlier. Mea culpa. Despite this becoming an obvious "ooooops", we allowed the stage to continue so competitors would have the chance to enjoy it. The safety problem arose late in the day when some, shall we say, less experienced shooters chose to emulate this approach to the stage. Unfortunately,because of the fast target exposures involved, several competitors shot beyond their ability and were unable to keep their shots safely contained in the established berms. After careful review of the risks, the RM and MD made the only call they could - they pulled this stage from the match for safety reasons. Given this decision, we had to completely shut down the stage - nobody else will get to shoot it, even for fun I apologize to everyone who did not get to enjoy this stage, and hope the rest of the match is adequate compensation. It's too bad people had to game the stage. I thought it was one of the most challenging / fun stages of the match. In the end I figured the best strategy was to look OVER my 1-4 optic (Set on 4x) and when the target popped up I would go there quickly and engage. You had to be REALLY fast on the long targets (300yds?). On the closer targets it usually permitted enough time to get multiple hits on each exposure. It sucks that a few people had to ruin it for the rest of us. I thought my time was relatively competitive for my ability and now it gets thrown out because of some boneheads. I can't imaging that DQ-ing the people who shot over the berm wouldn't have solved the "safety issue" pretty quickly. Regardless, this stands as a great example as to why gaming stages is bad for the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruyere Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Great stages, but got a trip to Dairy Queen 1st stage this morning. Guess it had to happen sometime... We lost a guy in our squad on 10 (the buckshot stage). He went for the far right side (popper and swinger) and then swung around to go after the leftmost side. Being right handed, he went to port-arms and broke the 180 by about 90 degrees! Too bad for him (and you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERIC Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 To me, it doesn't sound like the stage should've been thrown out due to safety issues. This could happen in any stage if you think about it. Let's say a less experienced shooter sees how the top shooters run a stage and he tries to copy them but ends up being unsafe because he is trying to shoot and move faster than he should or can. People should know what their limits are and shoot within them and the RO's should DQ the unsafe ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 People should know what their limits are and shoot within them and the RO's should DQ the unsafe ones. In principle I agree. In practice, on this stage with its natural terrain backdrop at 300+ yards, it would be difficult for the RO to prove, with sufficient certainty to withstand an arbitration, that any particular shot had indeed travelled over the mountain. All we know is the shots aren't always hitting the established berm. Behind this mountain are houses, a road and (today) a bicycle race. IMHO the risks of a single wild shot far outweigh any benefit from keeping the stage in the match, and so Gary and Dan made the right call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 I'm a little slow. Would someone please explain? I'm guessing that it is a stage where some shooters found it more beneficial to fire just enough shots at a hard to hit target and get a +5 penalty each for the miss without the FTE. For example, a stage has 3 hard to get targets that some competitors estimated that it would take them over 15 seconds to engage and neutralize. But by "engaging" the targets quickly and missing, they would avoid the FTEs and they would only get the +15 seconds penalty plus the time to take quick shots at the targets. Some does that in an attempt to win the stage. And sometimes they do win the stage. Some would argue that it is gaming, others would argue that it is playing the stage smart. ***Edited as I intended to write FTE, not FTN*** Thanks Jomar. It doesn't sound like much fun to not try to hit the target though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasSean Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 People should know what their limits are and shoot within them and the RO's should DQ the unsafe ones. In principle I agree. In practice, on this stage with its natural terrain backdrop at 300+ yards, it would be difficult for the RO to prove, with sufficient certainty to withstand an arbitration, that any particular shot had indeed travelled over the mountain. All we know is the shots aren't always hitting the established berm. Behind this mountain are houses, a road and (today) a bicycle race. IMHO the risks of a single wild shot far outweigh any benefit from keeping the stage in the match, and so Gary and Dan made the right call. I am enjoying the match, and I'm not arguing the call. I would, however, caution them from making such statements about safety and wild shots. Comments like that from anti-gun people would be quickly dismissed by anyone involved with the range, and to use the same argument to justify throwing out the stage is a slippery slope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Interim results posted. They still show stage 8 but that will change for the final results. Please keep in mind that only the final results are official. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninemmbill Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Interim results posted. They still show stage 8 but that will change for the final results. Please keep in mind that only the final results are official. -ld Wow, there are some big names pretty far down on that list. It will be interesting to hear more stories about the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I am enjoying the match, and I'm not arguing the call. I would, however, caution them from making such statements about safety and wild shots. Comments like that from anti-gun people would be quickly dismissed by anyone involved with the range, and to use the same argument to justify throwing out the stage is a slippery slope. Over the years I have seen stages in other matches withdrawn for unforeseen safety reasons too. We do everything we can to avoid pulling a stage, but sometimes it is the only prudent course of action. I think it reflects well on our sport that safety is THE most important consideration above all others. If you would like me to show you first-hand the particular concern we had, I would be happy to take you back to Stage 8 and point out the problem. Come find me - this morning I will be filling in on Stage 5 while the rest of the ROs on that stage are finishing their match. Just ask for "the idiot who designed all the stages for this match" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) Interim results posted. They still show stage 8 but that will change for the final results. Please keep in mind that only the final results are official. -ld Wow, there are some big names pretty far down on that list. It will be interesting to hear more stories about the match. Yuuuuuup, I've got a few friends there and I've got a feeling that I know how the calls are going to go. Looks fun, wish I could have made it! Edited March 27, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmccrock Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Interim results posted. They still show stage 8 but that will change for the final results. Please keep in mind that only the final results are official. -ld Wow, there are some big names pretty far down on that list. It will be interesting to hear more stories about the match. Looks like some have 3 stages left, some have 2, so the ones with 3 left are short some points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 St 8-wack a mole, gamed to the max. 50/50 it get's chucked. I see a 2.08 second run with 130 in penalties that got over 62%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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