9 mm Head Stamps to Avoid for 9 Major

[Alan Adamson]

Wow, Most of this thread has been hashed numerous times so I'm surprised that you got in this situation.

Here's the bottom lines

- S&B is *FINE* - I shoot all I can find - BUT, you have to take a magnet to *ALL* your brass as there are others besides S&B that are brass colored steel or partial steel (bases only), and the headstamp will vary. Just go to harbor freight and get a cheap magnet and run it thru your brass either before you clean or after. Or you can pull out a magnet from a failed hard drive if you want to go on the cheap. One final note on S&B, I like it because the primer pockets are nice a tight... I do crush a few primers as a result in a 1050, but I'll take it that way vs. over used and falling out.

- The issue with your round locking up the gun has to do entirely with the load, not the powder, etc. We have had this problem with a number of shortys where they are are trying to push the load to make major... No signs of over pressure, but what happens is that the base of the brass stretches from the load, and sticks it in the chamber *FIRM*. We can even repeat the problem by shooting a good load for a number of stages, and then stick an over powered load in and locking up the gun, ask me how I know.... I still yell at the shooter for doing it just to try it.

- Silhouette is reverse sensitive, as much as 20 degrees will show a difference one way or the other from the same load on the day it was chrono'd... I've now proven this 5 times as I've been working thru testing some other loads for 9Major.

While I have a metric butt load of Silhouette, I may not use it... in fact, testing so far shows that the recoil, both felt and dot movement, seems to be better in my gun with a 124JPH and True Blue at 1.165 oal. This has been back to back tested with SP2, Silhouette, AutoComp, HS6, 3n38 and n350. Both blind tests with me and my other open shooter friends. But each gun is different, etc.

YMMV,

Alan

[jtaylor996]

S&B brass should go in the trash. You also want to stay away form PMC brass for Major 9!!

Bummer man. I just got about 4k once fired range brass, and hand sorted out the junk (S&B, mostly). However, the majority of the brass is PMC. I'm shooting minor now, and the PMC has be great. Why is it no good for 9 major?

[Don_B]

S&B brass should go in the trash. You also want to stay away form PMC brass for Major 9!!

Bummer man. I just got about 4k once fired range brass, and hand sorted out the junk (S&B, mostly). However, the majority of the brass is PMC. I'm shooting minor now, and the PMC has be great. Why is it no good for 9 major?

PMC is OK for minor, I use it for loads around 150 pf but it appears to be too soft for major loads. I have 7 PMC cases on my reloading bench that look like belted magnum cases. I don't have pictures but I did take some measurements. The rim on a 9mm is app. .388 to .390, on the most deformed case the area just in front of the extractor groove measures .419. This case almost blew out. The other cases measure from .392 to .404.

These loads were shot in a SV IMM with 2 hybrid holes. I have been shooting Major 9 for over 5 years and have very few issues with it as long as I use good brass, Win & RP seem to be the best for me. And yes I will pick up my brass and reload it several times.

My load is 8.5 of HS6 with a 124 Montan Gold JHP. I can use small pistol primers with this load and do not get any signs of over pressure.

[3gunpinoy]

my expierence with S&B has been very bad. every SB case i have encountered seems to get stuck on my barell. so i have been extra careful to eye ball the cases i use even for weekly matches. it is difficult as the markings are quite small and if you are in a rush to load, then a few would get through. the barrels that seems to have a sensitivity to S&B are my KKM and Schuemanns Hybrid comp. However, i have an older gun that uses a Briley barrel and that does not seem to be affected, maybe it is old (over 100k rounds through it), while the new ones are just over 10k rounds.

i guess, if you have an older barrel, it might (?) be less sensitive to S&B cases

[Paul Burtchell]

I've had extraction issues with S&B brass with several different pistols. Now, it all goes in the trash.

S&B stands for Shi _ _ _ _ y Br_ ss

[CocoBolo]

For those that think 184pf would be a rocking bopping flippy snappy load check out how tame this gun shoots it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mannrrtx?feature=mhum#p/a/u/1/3iWHzwjsx-M

Edited November 3, 2010 by CocoBolo

[Torogi]

I have a friend who went to nationals, used 125gr Zero bullets with Silhouette powder but he charged only 7.0gr. i think he got 172PF. He said his normal charge is 6.8gr for ZERO bullets to make Major, BUT for MG 124gr he charges 7.8gr.

That is why at one thread here i asked if Zero is anyway different from MG.

[Sarge]

I have a friend who went to nationals, used 125gr Zero bullets with Silhouette powder but he charged only 7.0gr. i think he got 172PF. He said his normal charge is 6.8gr for ZERO bullets to make Major, BUT for MG 124gr he charges 7.8gr.

That is why at one thread here i asked if Zero is anyway different from MG.

There is no way it takes a full grain of powder to make the same PF with an MG vs. a ZERO! Maybe a tenth or two.

[Torogi]

Yep, I personally load 7.8gr of Silhouette and top it with 124gr JHP MG. When he said he only loaded 7.0gr with Zero and chrono'd over 170PF at the Nationals is unbelievable. I bought my open gun from him and i think he is not making it up. OAL should be at least 1.168" (he has Phantera) He sold me his dragoncat.

[jtaylor996]

For those that think 184pf would be a rocking bopping flippy snappy load check out how tame this gun shoots it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mannrrtx?feature=mhum#p/a/u/1/3iWHzwjsx-M

Wow. I haven't watched that many match videos... I'm not used to seeing the huge plumes of gas coming out of the comp like that. Is the comp why it's not flippy... would you say the same for a single stack gun without a comp?

[CocoBolo]

For those that think 184pf would be a rocking bopping flippy snappy load check out how tame this gun shoots it.

http://www.youtube.c...u/1/3iWHzwjsx-M

Wow. I haven't watched that many match videos... I'm not used to seeing the huge plumes of gas coming out of the comp like that. Is the comp why it's not flippy... would you say the same for a single stack gun without a comp?

The comp does two things. 1. Slows the slide down. 2. Vectors gasses upward and puts down force on the front of the gun. What it does is make a very high powered pistol feel like you are shooting a 22.

The single stack gun in the 45 is a different feel. It is more of a push than the snappy open gun muzzle rise comes when the slide hits the end of its travel. The open gun can be shot a little faster hence the alias Race Gun.

[CocoBolo]

I have a friend who went to nationals, used 125gr Zero bullets with Silhouette powder but he charged only 7.0gr. i think he got 172PF. He said his normal charge is 6.8gr for ZERO bullets to make Major, BUT for MG 124gr he charges 7.8gr.

That is why at one thread here i asked if Zero is anyway different from MG.

There is no way it takes a full grain of powder to make the same PF with an MG vs. a ZERO! Maybe a tenth or two.

I've shot both MTG and Zero 124gr RN's in both 38Super and 9 mm. In a good barrel (and I am qualifying here) the amount of powder difference to get the same velocty is about .1gr. Now if for instance you had an old shot out barrel and you had .356 Zeros and you had the .355 MTG I could see where the spread could be larger. The Montana Gold is a good bullet, but it is just a tick slower in the same gun with he same load than a Zero. My testing showed it to be only about 10 fps.

I do not believe that you can make 170pf with a 124gr Zero with only 7gr of Silhouette. My barrel is new and very fast and at 7.7gr with a 125gr at Nationals temp it was 174pf. Now with AutoComp 7.0gr is just right.

Edited November 3, 2010 by CocoBolo

[rgkeller]

Yep, I personally load 7.8gr of Silhouette and top it with 124gr JHP MG. When he said he only loaded 7.0gr with Zero and chrono'd over 170PF at the Nationals is unbelievable. I bought my open gun from him and i think he is not making it up. OAL should be at least 1.168" (he has Phantera) He sold me his dragoncat.

He needs to check his scale.

[Intel6]

That would explain a lot. I swage 40 bullets using 9mm cases as the jackets and I was swaging up some bullets over the weekend using some misc headstamp cases. I noticed that it took a lot more fore to swage down some bullets than others. When I checked they were S&B cases. In the past I have seen where some brands of brass take more force in the sizing dies I figured due to the different amounts of the metals that make up the brass. That is what I was figuring was going on in this case.

I went out and ran a magnet over my new bullets and sure enough, the S&B bullets stuck to the magnet. Big surprise to me when they did, now I just toss any S&B out all togeather.

Neal in AZ

Coco, I don't shoot open so I'll stick to the S&B question.

Some S&B is steel even though it is very hard to distinguish from regular brsss. I have loaded some by accident before and it worked fine in minor but I wonder how it would react to major PF stress. The newer S&B has the red smear on the primer and has very tight pockets and tend to eat primers. For these two reasons I just toss S&B now. But before these issues started cropping up I got good use out of S&B brass. It seemed to be very good brass.

Run a magnet over your S&B and see what you find.

[jtaylor996]

Wow. I haven't watched that many match videos... I'm not used to seeing the huge plumes of gas coming out of the comp like that. Is the comp why it's not flippy... would you say the same for a single stack gun without a comp?

The comp does two things. 1. Slows the slide down. 2. Vectors gasses upward and puts down force on the front of the gun. What it does is make a very high powered pistol feel like you are shooting a 22.

The single stack gun in the 45 is a different feel. It is more of a push than the snappy open gun muzzle rise comes when the slide hits the end of its travel. The open gun can be shot a little faster hence the alias Race Gun.

That's not quite what I was asking. You described that 9mm major load as "not flippy". I'm just curious if that's because the pressures are so high in 9mm major that the comp is extremely efficient, or just that the recoil impulse from even an uncompensated 9mm major gun isn't too bad.

I shoot a 9mm single stack gun right now, not a 45. I'm not doing any matches yet, but I do plan to in the near future.

[CocoBolo]

Wow. I haven't watched that many match videos... I'm not used to seeing the huge plumes of gas coming out of the comp like that. Is the comp why it's not flippy... would you say the same for a single stack gun without a comp?

The comp does two things. 1. Slows the slide down. 2. Vectors gasses upward and puts down force on the front of the gun. What it does is make a very high powered pistol feel like you are shooting a 22.

The single stack gun in the 45 is a different feel. It is more of a push than the snappy open gun muzzle rise comes when the slide hits the end of its travel. The open gun can be shot a little faster hence the alias Race Gun.

Definately that Dawson DP2 Comp is knocking the flip and recoil down, if you were to shoot this round in your uncompensated gun it would wake you up.

At a local match a Glock shooter picked up a round I dropped on the ground and put it in his glock and shot it. He crapped his pants and blew the bottom out of the mag.

That's not quite what I was asking. You described that 9mm major load as "not flippy". I'm just curious if that's because the pressures are so high in 9mm major that the comp is extremely efficient, or just that the recoil impulse from even an uncompensated 9mm major gun isn't too bad.

I shoot a 9mm single stack gun right now, not a 45. I'm not doing any matches yet, but I do plan to in the near future.

[GrumpyOne]

At a local match a Glock shooter picked up a round I dropped on the ground and put it in his glock and shot it. He crapped his pants and blew the bottom out of the mag.

See, Ron. Another reason for the Super....That wouldn't have happened if it were a Super or SC.

When it blew out the bottom of the mag, did the case wall give out? Or was it just from the concussion?

Leaving that kind of ammo laying around is DANGEROUS! I can just see some idiot picking it up and putting it through his nice, new Kel-Tec, or Bersa, or some other "quality" 9mm.

[SLM]

Leaving that kind of ammo laying around is DANGEROUS! I can just see some idiot picking it up and putting it through his nice, new Kel-Tec, or Bersa, or some other "quality" 9mm.

I'd like to respectfully disagree with that. Shooting some unknown ammo out of your gun is dangerous. Way back when I was taught if you don't know what it is you don't shoot it. With that said, maybe he Glock owner did it on purpose, just to see what it was like? There are several Open Glocks out there and they seem to handle major power factor ammo just fine.

[Xfactor]

My experience with Silhouette has been this. From a baseline of 60 degrees, I see a greater drop in velocity when the temp is in the 90's outside than I do a gain when it is 30...

+1

[CocoBolo]

GrumpyOne - I didn't intentionally leave it for they guy to pickup, it fell out of one of my mags during a reload and I could not find it in the grass. I will add that it was painted with Red Dykem. I didn't see what happened I was in another squad, but heard about it at lunch after the match, and yes the guy knew it was a major 9 and just wanted to see what it shot like. Well he found out.

I'm sure some idiot can figure out how to cram a 38 Super in to a 380 or 9 mm so nothing is safe from idiots.

I have a 3# coffee can full of rage pickup from local and major matches that I need to take apart for the brass and bullets one of these days. There is no way I would shoot any of it.

I'm sticking with major 9 for a while just picked up my brand new HOGS 9 major gun today. I posted pics in the Gallery.

[jid2]

So I've been sorting my 4300 rounds of brass I bought on-line and I have a ton of S&B in there. It does not appear to be magnetic, and it "looks" very nice. I do notice that when looking into the inside of the case there seems to be some forming marks at the base around the perimeter of the primer hole, what would that be from?

Does S&B make 100% brass in some cases? Not sure on what I'm going to do with them yet.

[CocoBolo]

So I've been sorting my 4300 rounds of brass I bought on-line and I have a ton of S&B in there. It does not appear to be magnetic, and it "looks" very nice. I do notice that when looking into the inside of the case there seems to be some forming marks at the base around the perimeter of the primer hole, what would that be from?

Does S&B make 100% brass in some cases? Not sure on what I'm going to do with them yet.

The only thing I know for sure is that I'm checking everything with a magnet. Anything that sticks to the magnet isn't going in my gun, regardless of the head stamp.

I did back my load off to 7.5gr of Silhouette and Crono now says 169.8 which is a little better than 184pf, gun does seem a little sluggish but maybe that is because I'm use to more bang.

Anyway I took all the S&B I had loaded and shot it in a pracice session and it did fine and these were 184pf. Keep in mind I don't pick it up after I shoot it. I leave it. If I wanted to pickup brass, and look at head stamps I would just put my 38SC barrel in the gun and start painting the cases and picking them up.

I am going to keep using S&B if it is not steel for local matches but will not take any to a major match. This could all change if the stuff starts giving me trouble. I don't want to spend my nights squinting at head stamps, I'm ok with dragging a magnet over the brass.

I came across a lot of WIN brass that looks like the Wolf steel case stuff, now guys that is enough we got brass that looks like steel and steel that looks like brass.

[Foxbat]

Just found another kind of a 9mm brass to be avoided - this one looks like a perfect nickel-plated brass, has brass-colored primer and is of Russian manufacture, with the stamp reading 6ПЗ, with 9mm Luger below. Fortunately it is magnetic, being steel case.

[Foxbat]

Recently noticed a few bulging cases in the stream of random 9mm brass shot major.

Turned out, the worst case bulgers were all Geco brass - see the photos.

There was another offender, but to a much lesser degree, and that is cases marked CBC on the bottom. There showed some bulging, but nowhere near the level of the Geco.

No case ruptures, and the primers look just fine, but I will be pulling Geco brass from my supply.

The extent of bulging - the worst case was .418" at the apex!!! Loads are in the 170pf range, I shoot several different ones, can't tell specifically which one has it, as there are very few Geco cases in the stream.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Foxbat

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've had three cases burst in the past two months -

lost the first one, but the other two were both

Winchester brass, that didn't look real old or beat

up at all, except for the large rip in the case.

That's 7.2 gr WAC , 124 Gr MG JHP at 1.170" in

a STI TruBor, pf 169.

For Area 6, I took all the Winchester brass out

of my ammo boxes - didn't have any more brass

explosions.

I also took out all the S & B brass, whether

they were brass or steel.