bird Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 All the top pros shoot the JMB 1911 and clones. We are in the 21st century and has anybody ever earned the GM title with a non-1911 type pistol. What will the top shooters be using 20-30 years from now? Will it still be the 1911??? BEginning minds want to know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Tangfoglios will get you there too. Just not as much available for them. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedaddy Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Bird, 20 years from now, you will be one of the top shooters. So, it sort of up to you. I like the John Moses Browning reference. It would be cool to have some brass made up with .45JMB on the headstamp. Getting back to your question, Ted Bonnet and D.R Middlebrooks both shoot CZ-75's. Jerry M. hoses with a wheel gun. In 1996 he won the Handgunner World Shootoff with a revolver, it was a sight to see! I think the success of the ubiquitous 1911 is due to the ease with which it can be modified to suit a shooters desires. When band-aids were invented, there was nothing before them that even came close, so now any adhesive bandage is called a band-aid. Same with Jello and gellatin. JMB invented the wheel as far as auto pistols go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kline Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 I think it is amazing and a real tribute to the John Browning design of the 1911, and shows how far ahead of its time the 1911 was, that shooters today are still using them. However, STI calls their guns 2011, because the design and function is the same, but the technology is far beyond what it was and the quality of the materials and some of the parts have slight changes making them function much better. The machining, quality, and technology of todays 2011's is incredible. They have just improved on the design a little, but made leaps and bounds in technology. I believe you can do it with a EAA/Tanfoglio, but there are no high caps anymore. Very, very few gunsmiths know the EAA/Tanfoglio guns and how to make them work and they had slide stop problems. The slide stops used to break a lot and were very frequent from what I understand in talking with older shooters. After talking with Eric Grauffel (IPSC World Champ) of France at the 2001 Florida Open, he said Tanfoglio was aware of the problem and in the past 3-4 years has changed their materials and manufacturing to prevent this. They changed the type of metal/steel through metalurgy tests to prevent this from happening. He said he has not broken a slide stop or cracked a slide in almost 4 years. He shoots about 60,000 rounds a year and has for several years. He said he has changed slides for different reasons, but not because it was broken or cracked/damaged. Seemed like a real nice kid though. Doesn't know me from Adam, but talked with me for about an hour at least. Have anyone else seen him shoot in person. This kid is unbelieveable, simply WARP speed in 6th gear and nothing else. Armando Valdes made GM shooting a Glock. I think there is maybe one other shooter who is a GM with a Glock, but thats about it. Real hard to do it with a Glock. The 1911/2011 can be customized to fit you perfectly and makes the learning/ skill curve a lot shorter. Kevin/IPSC Supercop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kline Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Hey, Brian should know a little about making GM and shooting a EAA/Tanfoglio/P9. Also, I heard the old timers talking about cracked slides in addition to slide stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerome Poiret Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Kevin, Eric is a nice and very fast guy (fast in shooting and fast in moving). We can see him at all the big matches here in France, and that's impressive. You can view some videos at http://ericgrauffel.com Prepare to cry ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 The trigger is the key, only designs with good, or easily modifyable single action triggers are going to appeal to competeive shooters. A relativelly small market is already well served by an established design, so the expertise is, and will continue to be focused on the pereceived needs of LE and the miliatary. P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedaddy Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Bird, I had to drive for several hours today and could not stop thinking about the importance of the second part of your question. "What will the top shooters be using 20-30 years from now?" Currently, Remington is making a rifle with electronic primer ignition. And Voere has made caseless ammunition. Perhaps the unlimited gun of the future will have a 1/2 lb electronic trigger and a small blow back operated feeding block to insert caseless cartridges the size of a 32. short. The entire slide wouldn't have to rack back and forth to feed and eject rounds. A 75 grain frangible alloy bullet made of recycled metal and polymers going 2200 fps will make 165 pf. Thats enough pressure to make a compensator work pretty well. Bullets would be cheap and non- toxic. We would all "press" our own rounds together in special dies that would form our propellant charges with the projectile. Sound pretty far out? I still remember the day my dad brought home a microwave oven. In the chapter called "The Tools of Shooting" Brian says, " the mechanics exist only to prepare the shooter to rise above them." He was writing about the mechanics of shooting of course, but doesn't it also apply to the mechanics of the machine we are shooting? Is the 1911 the "Weaver Stance" of pistols, a development so usefull that many will have difficulty moving beyond it ? (Edited by bonedaddy at 7:58 pm on July 13, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Jerome: I watched all of the videos from Eric's Web site. Youth sucks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Ron, Youth is great getting old REALLY REALLY SUCKS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 In 20-30 years, we'll be back playing laser-tag again. The shots are instant and there's no recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Kevin, I did make GM shooting a Witness. (I won the first Area Match I shot under the new "Limited Division" rules with one, so the immediately made me a Limited GM. I guess they wanted to get some in there right away.) Nevertheless, I feel I was definitely able to shoot the SV better. That is the ONLY reason I pressed SV into considering me to shoot their pistols. (I shot some of my buddies SVI guns while shooting for EAA - a mistake, because then I felt like I had to have one.) be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted July 15, 2001 Share Posted July 15, 2001 I know what Bird is thinking about. So I'll just ask it. Is it possible to make GM using a HK USP or Expert? Can a 30 oz. polymer frame gun be competitive against a 1911 based race gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted July 15, 2001 Share Posted July 15, 2001 I'm not much for hypothetical questions, but I'd have to say - yes, if Jerry Miculek was shooting it! be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 All right, you've sold me, I'm making the switch. Actually, I decided a week ago to change from Glocks to my single-stack 1911 in .45, (something I've been contemplating since ordering Safariland's 012, belts, and mag pouches in February) and have already been working on my draw and mag changes. A week after starting to practice, I can already hit the A-zone at 7 yards in 1.8 to 1.9 seconds regularly; that's about equal to what I can do with a Glock out of Blade-Tech gear. However, the 1911 still feels awfully strange --- and I probably won't take it to a match for another couple of weeks; I want to be able to run the gun without having to consciously think about the safeties. Any suggestions for speeding up this acclimation process, or do I just need to do more dry-fire and live fire and watch/feel it happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird Posted July 16, 2001 Author Share Posted July 16, 2001 Thanks Scooter, I guess that $99.00 mind reading course paid off...LOL. I shot my 1st competition today, a Steel Challenge and wow it was intense and I am hooked. All the practice in the world kindof went out the window when you have 30 people standing there watching you and the buzzer goes off..instinct took over. I did use my HK USP .45 and my time from the holster to a hit on the 1st plate was 1.5-1.8 seconds. I learned a whole bunch at this match and I was so damn nervous I was shaking... It also didn't help that my allergies/sinusitis were very BAD.. There were 5 stages and I was doing pretty good until the 5th stage and I ran out of ammo (damn 10 round mags) and the RO didn't stop the timer for a good 20 seconds after I stopped, then he proceeded to add time for the steel not shot..ARRRR I felt kindof cheated but it was fun anyway... BTW the RO who won overall was a Police Officer shooting a Glock and he was the only guy there with an attitude (when I would ask him a question he just glared at me and walked away.....weird vibe this guy had.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBChaffin Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 Bird, Ain't shootin' steel fun? Glad you enjoyed your first competition. I know what you mean about the practice "going out the window", but if its done right, that practice has alot of effect on the instinct that takes over. Learning from matches is in my opinion uncomparable though. I don't know why the timer would keep going after your last shot, but I guess the penalties for the steel left standing is right unfortunately. Sorry to hear about the guy with the attitude. That's too bad. One of the best things about competition that I have noticed (and I have been doing it not quite a year) are the people. I think this forum is an example of that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 I told you, you would be hooked. That hard part is now over. If you didn't finish the course of fire, it's a automatic 30 sec. if playing by SC rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBChaffin Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 Ah, Thanks Scooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedaddy Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 bird, the excitement of shooting for accuracy and speed in competition is incredible. For most of us ordinary guys I doubt that it will ever get boring. I shot a local club match yesterday and it was as fun as the first steel plate match I shot in a sand pit in 1986. Like my wife observed once, " it must be pretty intense, you're willing to drive 9 hours, one way, to shoot for a total of maybe five minutes." Yeah baby, I said "intense". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 He's the world champion,He got what I call "the luck of the beginners" (that makes his father laugh !) As Jerome said, he's a very nice guy. About the 1911 supremacy, it's true but remember 3rd place in standard at the WSXII was a Tanfoglio and 5th place was a glock ! In matches where trigger speed is not what counts most, skilled shooters with glocks or tanfos are there . DVC Julien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 20, 2001 Share Posted July 20, 2001 If you're worried about operating the safety, try the IPSC-style straight-thumb grip. That's one of the truly great things about this technique, you don't have to consciously operate the thumb safety, when your hands mate and you apply pressure to your grip the thumb, already on top of the safety, automatically (pun intended) takes it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve horsman Posted July 25, 2001 Share Posted July 25, 2001 Good topic, I know of two GM's in the Mesa, AZ area that shoot nothing but Glocks. I know of another in Texas. It can be done..........the 1911 trigger is easier, but it is more the shooter than the gun. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSC Supercop Posted July 25, 2001 Share Posted July 25, 2001 True, But you also have to remember that they might not have made GM with that gun. They might have shot a 1911 or something else to make GM, and then switched to something else afterward. After you hit GM, since this is the highest there is, some want a change and try something else because they've gone as high as you're gonna get classification wise. Bruce Gray is a GM and did so with a 1911, then switched to a HK Expert 40 for a change and sponsorship, but he didn't make GM with the HK Expert. Kevin/IPSC Supercop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted July 28, 2001 Share Posted July 28, 2001 At least one of the two GMs that Steve mentioned (Craig Stapp) did make it to GM shooting a Glock. He had the audacity to beat me in the AZ Police games w/ his Glock while I was shooting a Limited gun based on an STI. Not very nice of him :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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