Confused about the call...

[DrKyle1]

I shot a match at a local club this past weekend and am confused about a call by the RO... I am shooting a frank'n glock major 9 and I had a light load sneak in. The RO thought I had a squib & rightfully stopped me. I felt that it wasn't a squib. We went to the safe area after clearing my gun and the barrel was clear-no squib. He then proceeded to score the stage with only half of the targets engaged, so I had 10 mikes & FTE's. This was a cash back match with an $80.00 entry fee! I asked why I don't get to reshoot & he just said no. Should I have been given a reshoot based on USPSA rules?

Kyle

[ChuckS]

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a

suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition

(e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he

deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe

condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition

and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected

problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will

be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score

sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the

course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable

misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem

does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the

stage.

[steel1212]

If not squib present you get to reshoot the stage. The RO stopped you because he thought you had one, that part is fine. The part that is not is that they did not allow the reshoot up on finding out that you didn't have a squib. In these situations its good to know the rule book! Become a RO and you'll be better for it, if for the only reason you took the class is to learn the rules better.

[G-ManBart]

You're not confused, the RO was! Absolutely 100%, you get a reshoot if the RO stops you and there isn't a bullet in the barrel.

[lugnut]

Dr. Kyle- you got hosed.

[Aristotle]

Yeah, hate to say it, that is horrible on the RO's part and there is no excuse for it, you got HOSED.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Aristotle

[boz1911]

Screwed is more like it. A good case for knowing the rules and having a rulebook with you at all times.

[Joe4d]

delete

Edited July 3, 2010 by Joe4d

[Steve J]

What a POS. Sorry, Kyle. Another chapter in their long history.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Steve J

[DrKyle1]

ThaNks all that is what I thought but wasn't sure. Definately got hosed

[Flexmoney]

Knowing the rules means knowing your options.

11.1.3 Appeals – the Range Officer makes decisions initially. If the appellant disagrees with a decision, the Chief Range Officer for the stage or area

in question should be asked to rule. If a disagreement still exists, the Range Master must be asked to rule.

11.1.4 Appeal to Committee – Should the appellant continue to disagree with the decision he may appeal to the Arbitration Committee by submitting a first party appeal.

[Gary Stevens]

We have an RO disciplinary process. It starts out with education and pointing out where the problem is and what the rules say.

This is a prime example of an RO that needs to have pointed out to him/her what the problem is.

This is not a "gotcha" process, it is an education process.

I would urge the shooter to make a report to NROI and let's see if we can correct the problem.

We all make mistakes, God knows I might well be the poster child for them, but unless we know what the problem is, we can't be expected to correct it.

Gary

[George Jones]

My first question would be: "Is the "RO" certified and current?".

If the answer is "No", then it would not be a surprise if he was not knowledgeable on the rules and the procedures we teach.

If the answer is "Yes", then I suggest that the individual needs a refresher and should attend the next available Level I seminar. Further, Gary's comment concerning the RO Discipline Policy applies and provides a method whereby the individual can be brought up to speed.

View it here

Only two ways to fix the problem - either the individual takes it upon himself (via peer pressure perhaps) or NROI must be informed and follows through.

[mactiger]

I'm teaching a level one seminar in Austin in August. Might be a good opportunity for either some refresher or initial training.

Troy

[BayouSlide]

As other posters have said: know the rules, carry a rule book and cite the specific rule. When you show the RO in b&w, a good RO will admit his or her mistake and thank you for correcting them so that you will get the score you deserve. If not, take it up the chain. That's your right, so stick up for your rights in as polite and nonconfrontational a way as possible.

And as ROs/CROs, we all owe the sport our maximum effort to raise the standards of officiating to the highest level possible, especially at local matches. The competitors at a local match deserve the same quality of officiating as at a Level II or III in my opinion. If an RO at your local matches is a little fuzzy on some rules, make it a point to educate them—in a friendly way that won't embarrass them in front of the competitors, if at all possible. Sometimes it may be brain fade or an honest mistake...it's happened to all of us.

Curtis

[Dan Hefta]

I was at a local match not too long ago and a very experienced competior was shooting said COF when he had a squib that know one else noticed, he stopped shooting and let the RO know that he thought he had a squib. Upon further investigation he actually did have the squib, but in all of the confusion the RO did not score the shooters stage, he said tape 'em up! So the shooter ended up getting a reshoot, the point that I am making is mistakes happen, sometimes for the shooter and sometimes against. Everyone that posted earlier is right though you do need to learn the rules not only to help out your club by ROing but also to help protect yourself from bad calls.

[JThompson]

That's the thing... A lot of time at a club level you will have someone other than a certified RO. Everyone need to know the rules. I know them pretty well, but still carry the "Blue Book" in my shooting bag. This is as much your failure as that of the "guy with the timer." I say it that way because I'm betting the guy isn't certified. IF he is than he should be "required" to take a refresher. That is not something that should slip passed. If a perfect world, nothing would, but that's a basic call that should have been known to every RO.

I suggest you take the Level I too. To know the rules is to protect yourself from errors.

Best,

JT

Edited July 2, 2010 by JThompson

[Team Amish 1]

Bad call by that RO.

Are you going to ask your $$ back?

I realize it's not the most comfy thing to do but he ruined your $80 match.

[Aristotle]

I have to agree with JT. Rules is just as much your responsibility as it is the RO's. Know the rules, and usually the best way to accomplish this is taking a level 1 course. This is the case in all level's of RO's, from RO to RM's, they all make mistakes. The simplest way to confirm is to simply say "cite the rule..." this will force them to look in the rule book.

But this is a gentle reminder to RO's or anyone that plans to hold the clock, KNOW the rules and only make a call if you ARE SURE of the infraction broken, especially on a big call like this. Just like making a call, there is no " I think..." or "I'm pretty sure...", there is only "I KNOW".

Edited July 2, 2010 by Aristotle

[BayouSlide]

Just like making a call, there is no " I think..." or "I'm pretty sure...", there is only "I KNOW".

There is one other option before making the call on penalties in particular: "Let's check this to make sure," then you grab your handy rule book. Some of the rules—like reshoots for non-existent squibs—are easy. Some you run into only infrequently and double checking the book before finalizing the score makes sure the call is right—and the correct call then gets wired into your long-term memory for next time. Everyone on the squad learns something. If there is any doubt, look it up. But if you find you're doing that more than once in a blue moon, that might be a sign it's time for a little homework or a refresher course

Curtis

[VegasOPM]

I've found a very handy little area for the rule book in my range bag. It is quite dog-eared from use as a competitor and as an RO and MD for our local club. Just saying...

[Flexmoney]

Bad call by that RO.

Are you going to ask your $ back?

I realize it's not the most comfy thing to do but he ruined your $80 match.

While a bad call was made, I don't think there is grounds to ask for the match fee back unless the call was properly escalated (per the rule book) while at the match.

[Dan Hefta]

Bad call by that RO.

Are you going to ask your $ back?

I realize it's not the most comfy thing to do but he ruined your $80 match.

While a bad call was made, I don't think there is grounds to ask for the match fee back unless the call was properly escalated (per the rule book) while at the match.

+1 Just move on and learn from it, you already have the right attitude about learning, after all you are on this forum.

[DrKyle1]

Next time I see the guy, as I know him pretty well I will talk to him about it. I was pretty p.o'd at the time but over it now. I just don't want it to happen to someone else by that guy.

[mike4045]

Which stage? I had words with one, after shooting the stage. I think most of the RO's on the stages were not certified. You should have found Wayne and talked to him, he was the MD and knows the rules.

Troy I would love to get away and take the class, but can't get away for 2 days. I am shooting Tx Limited and using most of my traveling fund for it. I live about 2 hrs from the range and that's alot of driving if I don't stay overnight.

Mike