STI Modifications for IPSC.

[Carmine]

Hi Everyone.

I've been using my STI's for several years now for both IPSC and Action Pistol Matches.

My question for you is the following.

Why do we spend over 2K for a gun(with only 1 mag)and then proceed to get it "match ready"?

I'll post pics of my gun a.s.a.p....but my gun has just 4 original parts.

The gun runs like a dream....after several months and another 1.5K fixing the gun and tuning the mags.

So what have you done to fix your gun?

By the way, up here in Canada..doing anything "Gun Related" can get expensive.

Ciao.

[1911vm]

I DO NOT KNOW just kidding. I strongly believe in one of two things

1st if you pay anything over 1200-1500 you should not need to spend thousands on top of it to make it work well.

2nd if you truly want a custom gun to your specifications have one built by a reputable smith.

I got a 1911 built By Guncrafter industries the only thing I have changed in 3 years are the sights (twice LOL). A friend had Benny Hill build an STI a few years ago and for a little bit more then you paid for a stock STI and that thing is unbelievable. His primary gun and used heavy no problem no modifications.

And at the same time another buddy has spent 2200 on a XD .45 grate gun but now it is a $2800 XD.

I think the main reason for spending money on the gun that works is somehow we think if I just do this or that I could be better shooter.

[Carmine]

Chasing after "the next big thing" in IPSC can be fruitless.

My initial question still remains.

Is a stock STI given it's 2K pricetag ready to go "out of the box"....in almost every case I've seen the answer is no.

It's been my personal experiance over the years and 2 STI's that they have all needed work.

Every gun required magazines fitted and adjusted, the triger on one of my guns was so heavy that I thought something was broken.

One of my guns came with the elevation tension spring missing from the rear adjustable sight.

Both of my guns came with gouges( not machining marks) on the rails and other surfaces.

All I'm saying is that we all like our guns to be as refined as possible..but considering the cost of a base gun, the refinements should be down to a minimum.

If it sounds like I'm ranting on STI...I'm not, all I want is the gun they sell me to be fitted and as refined as I know their guns can be period.

Ciao.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Toronto my old home town. I think most of us like to tinker with our guns to make them our guns. We see a new widget and have to have it. STI make some fine guns but they are a production shop and have some issues sometimes. A custom pistol is usually made by one person and fitted that way. I know Benny Hill at Triangle Shooting Sports and he designs and builds the pistols himself. He makes sure they are right before they leave the shop since comebacks are a bitch. He also does alot of fixes on guns built by other companies. I used to visit him when I lived in Corpus Christi and it was amazing the stuff he had to repair The other thing to remember is that STI makes alot of guns and the odd one may go out not quite right and will be taken care of with there great warranty. I know that may be a problem living north of the border. I suggest next time you give STI a call to see what they can do for you or even look at there custom shop they now have. Now go see a Blue Jays game at Skydome and have a beer Thanks, Eric

[twodownzero]

I really wish we could see more standardization of magazine dimensions. STI really should be selling its limited guns with 20+ round magazines that are ready to rock and roll from the factory. That's the only disappointment I have about owning one...the gun itself has been great.

[G-ManBart]

I think the problem with 20 round mags as factory standard would be that they're not what anybody would recommend for self-defense/duty use and there are a number of folks using 2011 guns for those purposes. The liability in that sort of situation is just too high...well that and the price of the mags would double...just adding the required basepads would add $40. R,

[twodownzero]

That's not really what I meant, Bart.

What I mean is that they know we're using these guns in USPSA. They should be making and shipping a complete magazine with a published capacity that is ready to go for Limited and Open.

I know I wasn't the only guy at Area 5 asking my fellow competitors how many rounds they get in a magazine. And when mags came apart for cleaning, you can bet that I was taking a look at the work of some of our favorite gunsmiths to see just how they are achieving max capacity while not giving up the reliability.

I'm glad, and happy, that the 2011 is a sufficiently versatile platform that it is being used on duty and such. I'd just rather see STI and SV, both, market and sell a magazine with a published capacity that is guaranteed to work.

One of the possibilities is that either or both could develop a magazine tube that does not require an extended basepad to achieve max capacity in Limited.

The other problem is that the number of those magazines that could be marketed and sold is so limited that the price might never be competitive.

Call it a pipe dream, but I'd really like to see one magazine that worked in every gun of this pattern. I think it'd work wonders for the reliability of these guns in competition and be a net gain for everybody all around.

But maybe I'm just too much of an optimist here, you tell me.

[Carmine]

One of my budies guns an STI didn't even work with the one factory mag that came with the gun.....didn't anybody test/proof this gun before packaging and shipping.

As for 20 getting round mags to work....try getting the 10 rounders to work can also be a bitch.

I go back to my original question to this agust forum.......did you have to fix your gun to get it "match ready".

Hey I was looking at a friends SVI Sight tracker gun.....amazing fit and finnish...I now see that STI is offering the Apeiro..is it a match for the SV??

If the gun ( asuming that I'll see one one day)is comparable I might consider a 3rd STI gun...but it's got to go from day one.

Afterall at 2.7K ( without taxes and no mags) I would expect it period.

Ciao.

[mildot1]

My Eagle 5.0 came out of the box running, the only thing done to it was for my personal fit and taste.

Ordered my extra mags from brownells and never had any issues other than capacity.

I suppose you can get a bad one from time to time, but they will take care of the problem

Mildot

[blaster113]

my biggest gripes revolve around magazines; the 10 rounders suck, and the 140mm ones can be picky and need tuning just to run. I had to file stock followers to fit into stock STI tubes. crazy. Magazine components should have consistent dimensions so you can grab factory parts and piece together a mag which will run without tuning.

Edited June 29, 2010 by SIG shooter

[BLUTO]

That's not really what I meant, Bart.

What I mean is that they know we're using these guns in USPSA. They should be making and shipping a complete magazine with a published capacity that is ready to go for Limited and Open.

I know I wasn't the only guy at Area 5 asking my fellow competitors how many rounds they get in a magazine. And when mags came apart for cleaning, you can bet that I was taking a look at the work of some of our favorite gunsmiths to see just how they are achieving max capacity while not giving up the reliability.

I'm glad, and happy, that the 2011 is a sufficiently versatile platform that it is being used on duty and such. I'd just rather see STI and SV, both, market and sell a magazine with a published capacity that is guaranteed to work.

One of the possibilities is that either or both could develop a magazine tube that does not require an extended basepad to achieve max capacity in Limited.

The other problem is that the number of those magazines that could be marketed and sold is so limited that the price might never be competitive.

Call it a pipe dream, but I'd really like to see one magazine that worked in every gun of this pattern. I think it'd work wonders for the reliability of these guns in competition and be a net gain for everybody all around.

But maybe I'm just too much of an optimist here, you tell me.

AMEN!

[Chills1994]

I am stealing this next line from another forum....

the 1911/2011 "is a self-licking ice cream cone industry".

so...hmmmn...yeah...to some extent I think there is some "planned obsolesence" thrown into how these guns are built.

[el pres]

You guys have it all wrong !! You are forgetting about inflation, or demand driven inflation !! More specifically what one is "willing" to pay to get a psychological edge !!

It's a crime but $1200-$2000 is just an entry level gun now a days.. a stripped down Hemi with no A/C !!

[Mark100nl]

Is a stock STI given it's 2K pricetag ready to go "out of the box"....in almost every case I've seen the answer is no.

You can say that again.. I've had mine (Edge in 9mm) for 2 month's now and it's still not running. Ramp was polished and the extractor was exchanged on the two visits to the smith after the purchase. Myself I've replaced the magsprings and followers with the ones from Arredondo. Yet still it is impossible to shoot 12 steelplates without at least one feeding error. Back to the smith yet again this week..

As far as I'm concerned STI sell expensive guns that simply don't work out of the box. Unless you're very lucky..

[Pat Miles]

.. a stripped down Hemi with no A/C !!

In the days of the REAL hemi's you didn't want one with a/c or a heater or a rear seat or...!

Pat

[G-ManBart]

The big factor some/many folks are missing here is economy of scale. Sure, STI could probably come up with a way to offer a 20rd .40 mag (140mm) that was reliable, but that would do a number of things. First, we're not the only folks buying 2011s, and this would raise the price significantly...probably double or more. People who aren't shooting USPSA would complain they're paying for something they don't need. They'd also have to remind folks that they'd need to replace the spring every year because max capacity competition springs don't last like duty style springs do...people will just run them until they die, then complain that STI makes a lousy mag spring. Further, STI would have to figure out what it would cost to develop said mag and accurately estimate how many they would sell per year to determine how long before they'd turn a profit on it. It may simply be that it would take too long...keep in mind, STI is a rather small company in the greater firearms manufacturing world.

The same basics hold true for the guns themselves. Not everyone who buys a 2011 is a USPSA/IPCS shooter. The extra work that people are talking about here...perfect triggers, etc, would increase the cost significantly, and lower their annual production numbers. Both of those might drive down their profits enough that they couldn't stay in business. From what I've seen, STI puts a lot back into our sport, so it's not like they're a money hungry company who doesn't care about their customers...far from it. I also doubt anybody there is getting rich.

Compare this with almost any well-known gunsmith out there. Matt McLearn told me a joke earlier this year: "Do you know what the difference is between a large pepperoni pizza and a custom gunsmith? A large pepperoni pizza can feed a family of four". He said he's crazy busy cranking out guns, that are roughly double the cost of a new STI, and he still isn't making a killing on it. That tells me that STI isn't charging too much for their products.

The good thing is that if the gun won't run, STI will fix it...that's certain. I've only bought one stock STI and it ran perfectly from day one. I later had work done on it to set it up more to my liking, but that's because I really wanted a custom gun and didn't have the time to wait for one. I also bought a Dawson Supertuned Edge, but that doesn't exactly count since they did some work to it before I got it (although a large part of the price is for hard chrome)...it's always been incredibly reliable.

Every company has to assess their market and determine what folks are willing to pay for a particular product. They then take that price range and try to make a product to fit the demand. It's a balancing act between price and quality that can never be perfect...some bad parts/guns will always get out the door (even happens to the best custom smiths too), but how they deal with it is what really matters. R,

Bart

[GrumpyOne]

Well said! I couldn't have said it better myself (if I could have said it at all! )

[Joe4d]

The reason we get super expensive guns that dont work is because we buy super expensive guns that dont work, and then pay a third party to fix them. If people would just stop doing that you would see QC issues disappear over night. It's about money, QC slips until it starts costing more to do warranty work than it would cost to have a good quality control program. We have to make a good QC program cheaper than warranty work. How do we do that ? Stop paying for reliability packages and tuning for something that should work. Send it back.

With factory ammo, factory mags and at factory capacity the gun should work and be accurate.

Tuning and customizing should come in when we want to change the gun from stock,, squeeze more rounds in the mag, wider safety, non spec ammo, different spring rates, lighter trigger,

That being said My Eagle 6 .40 was flawless with American Eagle 165's and factory mags, corse had to do a little tweaking to get 20 round mags and I went to a wider single side safety, but other than that it runs and runs and runs, Id talk to STI first if you have issues.

[G-ManBart]

I'd say the vast majority of us (USPSA/IDPA shooters) plan on using "non spec ammo", squeezing more rounds in the mga and using different spring rates right from the get-go. Since we make up a large percentage of folks buying these guns, that's going to take a big chunk out of the number of folks who shouldn't pay for a reliability package as you suggest. R,

[818-DVC]

Buy an SV. Wait a year, pay 3+k and get a tuned 21rd mag. $125 per addtl tuned mag. My SV ran out of the box, and hasn't stopped.

I have custom 2011's that are built right with the right parts and rarely have issues.

STI and Bar-Sto both don't mfg race ready guns.

Spend a few more hundred bucks & have someone like Benny build you a gun. You will save time money and frustration.

[calishootr]

Per the OP for me the reason I modify a 2011 platform(pick one) is because i CAN,if we wanted stock non modified, we would cartainly go back to the venerable 1911 that has served so many for so many yrs now, tho the ones coming from the manafactures these days do not look like your grand daddy's old warhorse so even that platform has been updated, and over the yrs of doing this silly sport i have come to like certain things on my 2011 platforms that the manafacturers dont supply with the firearm...as for buyin any custom gun and expecting it to work out of the box is fancifull at best, i have YET to have a custom 'racegun/2011' platform perform flawlessly out ofthe box/gate and I have had some built by some reputable makers not just billy bob the local gun hack, I sent one back w/ some of my ammo and was told their guns only run on 'new brass' not my reloaded more than a few times stuff...its a custom gun people, the tolerances are(or should be) a lot tighter than 'factory'(pardon if i offended any factory types) then there is the issue of the person using their own ammo that is loaded to who knows what specs??? an expect it to run??? not always...its a relationship, you have to get to know what it likes and doesnt,and work within those parameters

[Josh Biondi]

Sorry guys.... maybe im a lucky boy but i have had 6 STI EDGE & Executive and i dont have all that trouble i have read here...

Its true that in the last but one EDGE the trigger was a little hard but working a little on the sear surface all was ok...

however all the guns worked fine so as i got it....

My idea is that as in the motoclice race the team should fit the bike to win in the same way any shooter should fit his gun, and if i bought a Ferrari i must not pretend that i dont have to fit the carburation.......

[Carmine]

Wow..it seems that my absence from this forum has not diminished the passion on this subject.

I've been playing with my STI Open gun for the past couple of weeks...so I've been away from this forum..sorry.

It apears that the STI issue regarding match ready functioning "out of the box"..is still out there.

Has anybody tried STI's new Apeiro..with the Aluminum Grips....????....just wondering.

Ciao.

[G-ManBart]

Per the OP for me the reason I modify a 2011 platform(pick one) is because i CAN,if we wanted stock non modified, we would cartainly go back to the venerable 1911 that has served so many for so many yrs now, tho the ones coming from the manafactures these days do not look like your grand daddy's old warhorse so even that platform has been updated, and over the yrs of doing this silly sport i have come to like certain things on my 2011 platforms that the manafacturers dont supply with the firearm...as for buyin any custom gun and expecting it to work out of the box is fancifull at best, i have YET to have a custom 'racegun/2011' platform perform flawlessly out ofthe box/gate and I have had some built by some reputable makers not just billy bob the local gun hack, I sent one back w/ some of my ammo and was told their guns only run on 'new brass' not my reloaded more than a few times stuff...its a custom gun people, the tolerances are(or should be) a lot tighter than 'factory'(pardon if i offended any factory types) then there is the issue of the person using their own ammo that is loaded to who knows what specs??? an expect it to run??? not always...its a relationship, you have to get to know what it likes and doesnt,and work within those parameters

Wow, I've had more than one custom gun that was 100% from day one...can't imagine that was all luck either. R,

[Mark100nl]

Stop paying for reliability packages and tuning for something that should work. Send it back.

With factory ammo, factory mags and at factory capacity the gun should work and be accurate.

I agree completely. Unfortunately if you're in Europe like I am, sending the gun back to STI is not an option. Not just because of the time that would take but our laws won't allow it.

I have had an SV on order since januari and kind of intended this STI to be my temp gun, unless I liked it really really well. Looks like the Edge is going out the window the second the SV arrives.