Squib and double charge loads

[GrumpyOne]

Alright Ladies and Gentlemen, what I would like is some clear data on the above subject. If you vote in the poll, please explain your choices in the thread, such as, "I saw a squib from a guy who...." and the outcome of the squib or double charge. I would like to know if it's complacency, lack of understanding, carelessness, bad components, or whatever caused the squib or double charge.

I have personally witnessed two squib loads, both completely wrecking the gun as the person fired another round right after them. I believe they were loaded on a Lee single stage press. Turns out, he did not drop a powder charge in those two rounds. I have seen one double charge, which disassembled the gun in the persons hand. He wasn't hurt, but the gun was a paper weight after that. It may not have even been a double charge, just some different powder, I'm not sure (it was a long time ago). I don't know what kind of press it was as I haven't seen the guy since then.

Edit to add: G-manBart and I had the same idea about this post, he beat me to the poll by a few minutes.

Edited May 17, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[Sarge]

I tried to vote but I don't know the press make or type.

BUT I have seen a handful two of which were the same guy at back to back matches. His own words each time, "I was cranking out ammo this morning for the match"! That plays perfectly into the inattention I discussed in an earlier thread.

Not sure but I thought he mentioned loading on a 650.

JUST KIDDING!!!!

[kimmie]

I've seen several squibs during matches and several while people were practicing. They were all experienced reloaders so I can only assume they weren't paying attention or got distracted or were just plain rushing. I saw one where the shooter fired 3 squibs, one on top of the other. Didn't blow up his gun but it did become a paper weight - in my pistol safety class as a conversation piece Our gunsmith cut out pieces of the barrel so you could see each bullet.

I have seen a gun blow up - the cylinder embedded itself into the metal partition between the booths at the range. Again, experienced reloader, probably distracted and double charged. Another conversation piece for the class

I almost had a double charge. When I first started reloading, the person teaching me gave me the recipe for Winchester powder when I was using Bullseye. He knew I was using Bullseye but got his recipes confused. First shot . This taught me a valuable lesson. Trust no one. That's the reason for loading manuals. If I do use someone elses recipe, I start really low and work my way up. I'm also OCD. I look in each case before I seat the bullet. I case gauge every single round. I reweigh maybe every 15 or so and I measure the length maybe every 20. If for some strange reason I think I got distracted, I dump the rounds. I have a box of 100 or more rounds that I'll pull one of these days . Needless to say, I don't do mass ammo production but...... so far, no problems!

*don't know which presses were used - sorry

Edited May 17, 2010 by kimmie

[juan]

I voted 6- 10 on a lee 1000

My son been reloading less then 1 year

The return spring for the powder disc was hanging up , not returning.

He was not checking the cases for powder before setting the bullet.

squib city here we come.

[Team Amish 1]

I have had a squib or two, yes, on a Lee Loadmaster.

Had nothing to do with the press, though.

I let the powder go empty and I got the pfft sound at the range. My fault. Nowadays, I have a light source mounted so I can see the charge in the case before seating the bullet. Filling up the powder hopper once you go below the 50% mark also helps.

I'm reasonably sure, operator error or negligence makes for most of the squibs and double charges.

edited because I hate mispelt words

edited 4 times because i can't get it wright

Edited May 16, 2010 by Team Amish 1

[GrumpyOne]

Thanks everyone so far! I've always said it was the operator, not the press....

[Poppa Bear]

I have seen two squibs, one double, and a couple of HOT loads. The squibs were on Dillon 550's where the operator did not verify the powder charge before seating the bullet. The double was a 650 where he stopped mid load and restarted by doubling the case. The HOT loads were errors where the machine was not dropping the right charge and the operator did not check it when the run started. I would guess he went from PF of 170 to a PF of 225 to 250 for a couple of shots. I know I always drop within .1 grain on my machine but I still check every so often (about 1 in 50) just to verify.

[G-ManBart]

You left out a choice of "zero"

[GrumpyOne]

You left out a choice of "zero"

A choice for "zero" would be a non vote anyway. "how many squibs have you seen?" zero "What were they loaded on?" What was what loaded on? I haven't seen any squibs... see?

[G-ManBart]

You left out a choice of "zero"

A choice for "zero" would be a non vote anyway. "how many squibs have you seen?" zero "What were they loaded on?" What was what loaded on? I haven't seen any squibs... see?

Okay

You realize that by asking it this way, people might answer with guesses since they weren't always the one loading the ammo...I've seen some that I didn't get to confirm the press etc. "Well, I think Billy Joe was using a 341 Chargepro CR press"....that sort of thing. R,

Edited May 17, 2010 by G-ManBart

[GrumpyOne]

You left out a choice of "zero"

A choice for "zero" would be a non vote anyway. "how many squibs have you seen?" zero "What were they loaded on?" What was what loaded on? I haven't seen any squibs... see?

Okay

You realize that by asking it this way, people might answer with guesses since they weren't always the one loading the ammo...I've seen some that I didn't get to confirm the press etc. "Well, I think Billy Joe was using a 341 Chargepro CR press"....that sort of thing. R,

True, but by our nature, we see something bad happen, we will ask what the duece is going on and how it happened....

I'm hoping people are honest and not guessing, but knowing. That is why I asked how many they had PERSONALLY seen, what were the circumstances, etc. After all, hearsay is not admissible in court.....

[calishootr]

wow...in 21 yrs of competition i have seen my fair share, even had acouple myself, recently got one stuck in my open gun, which is a shocker because that gun/load is normally lights out, i load for it in one sitting the ammo forthe yr....my limited gun??? have had 2 'squibs' that actually knocked down poppers hehehe as for other people, saw one a guy was using a local factory round, and it had gotten a .380 case in the .45 round...low case capacity got the .45 round to squib, and he racked an fired...oooops wrecked the gun, butthe ammo maker made do on a new slide, back in the days of singlestack .38 supers and non ramped barrels witnessed lots of splinters in hands from adventuous loadings of light bullets and win. 231...pachmayr made afortune off of us with his steel lined rubber grips(yes folks thats where the term'super face' comes from

[GrumpyOne]

C'mon guys, let get this info going!

[LPatterson]

As an RO I have seen way more squibs than I care to think about. Five had the shooters trying to chamber another round after the squib but thankfully the next round wouldn't chamber including my own. One open shooter was racking in his 4th round before I could get him stopped. Never thought to ask them what machine they used or an experience level. Most did not want to talk about it as they went looking for a squib rod. One shooter was yelling for a squadmate to get a squib rod out of his shooting bag so he could continue (2004 rules).

[kylethunder380]

I've seen one, and felt horrible since it was my brother's first IDPA match and guess who loaded the ammo? He was nervous to begin with and luckily, when it happened, the RO caught it and stopped him. We were able to push the bullet out with a squib rod and no damage to the gun. I had some S&B 124gn factory ammo (good stuff by the way!) on me and let him use that for the rest of the match while I used the reloads... he didn't think it was necessary but I insisted.

After that match, I got rid of my LEE powder measure and got the Hornady LNL... not because I was certain the equipment was at fault, but I just felt uneasy every time I looked at it after that. It's hard to stick with something in this sport if you don't trust it. I was using Clays powder for a minor 9mm load, and the LEE measure just didn't do well with the flakey consistency and small charge. I'm assuming it was either an empty or near-empty charge of powder, since I was able to see that happen more than once during careful testing afterwards. Now, even with the new measure, I physically inspect each case before seating the bullet to make sure the powder level looks reasonable.

-Kyle

[RussB]

C'mon guys, let get this info going!

Darn, if I'da known there was gonna be a test, I would've kept notes!

I've seen many a squib, and saw two guns have a case blow out (1911 & a Glock) I carry around a squib rod, but luckily haven't used it on one of my own in over a decade...I do loan it out though. A fellow competitor need it to push a 40 cal bullet out of his open gun last week

[Corey]

never loaded a squib myself. pretty hard to get a squib or double the way i on my single stage tho

[CocoBolo]

2 Squibs fully porgressive press after 5 Drinks at happy hour. Morale is don't drink and drive or drink and relaod.

[XRe]

I've seen a number of them, and they happen to people of any skill level and using basically any kind of press. Even on a 1050 - things can break and go unnoticed, etc. I usually ask what kind of press the person is loading on when I see one happen. Definitely easier to do on some presses than others, but having an auto-indexing press is not a panacea for avoiding squibs, so...

[jrb06]

Two squibs in same 200 round batch (my reloads) these were 45's Was having problems with the powder dispenser and had caught two others but missed these two. Was using tightgroup on a Lee 1000 The powder was very static clinging after that using dryer sheet in dispenser problem gone. I load on both Lee and Dillion and would have to agree most squibs are operator mess ups

[Sal1950]

Loaded a couple squibs myself just lately, gotta kick myself in the butt for being complacent and careless!

Luckily I followed my own rule on the range and investigated completely why the gun didn't go bang, and just had

the nuisance of having to drive the logged bullet out of the barrel.

Nothing to blame but myself, been loading on my Dillon 450 since the early 80s.

Best lesson from this post, ALWAYS KNOW EXACTLY WHY your gun didn't go bang BEFORE racking the slide or pulling the trigger again.

Cheers,

Sal

[Classic_jon]

I have seen several and 99% of them were operator error on all sorts of presses.

One friend of mine was loading 223 and the guy that was teaching both of us told him over and over, "When you are reloading rifle brass you have to make sure *everything* is correct and that the brass has been trimmed and sized. It is not as forgiving as a pistol cartridge is." I was not there when this happened but got a call right after it happened from the friend asking me WTH just happened...

He goes out shooting with some friends, shoots two mags, goes for a third... Racks a round pulls the trigger and it sounds funny. He has to fight the extractor on his AR to get it out, chambers another round and when it does not seat all the way he beats on the forward assist a couple of times and gets a click with no bang. He extracts that round and the bullet is pushed back into the brass. (I bet you can see this coming...) He ejects that round and chambers another and beats on the forward assist, pulls the trigger and *BOOM!*

Fortunately for him the rifle just blew the mag out of the bottom of the gun, destroyed the polymer mag and showered him with bits of plastic from the mag. It jammed the bolt on his AR shut. I told him to case it up and bring it to me and if I could not unlock the bolt I had some friend I was sure could. I ended up pounding the bolt open with an old rod and a 3 lb hand sledge. 3/4 of the base of the brass was wrapped around the gas tube and the rest of the brass was pressure welded to the chamber. The extractor was bent outwards and was still holding a small section of the base of the brass.

To this day he insists that the powder from the round that setback must have spilled out, caught, and blown it up but I, and everyone I have told what happened to, says *squib* and that the reason it set back was that he was pounding the squib further into the chamber with the forward assist.... Took him 7 months to fire a gun again and he was pretty tentative at first too...He was shooting some of his own .45 reloads....

[CrankyCrash]

I've never loaded a squib myself.

However, in over 5 years working as an IDPA SO, I've seen and heard my fair share.

Unfortunately, most of the guys I knew that had the squibs were experienced reloaders and competitive shooters.

In the cases I've witnessed, the reloading equipment was NOT a factor.

It all boiled down to what we used to say in the military: "Head Space and Timing".

There is one case that sticks in my mind from a recent match. The guy was shooting WWB 9mm and had a squib, I had never seen a squib from factory ammo. Go figure.

I only crank out about 100 cartridges in an hour even though I've got a Lee LoadMaster progressive press and could easily knock out 400+ in the same time. I'm extremely anal and make sure that I check that the powder is the exact weight that I want for every single cartridge.

It's all about paying attention to what you are doing and being vigilant about safety, no matter how many times you've done the task.

Edited May 18, 2010 by CrankyCrash

[bcbulldog78]

I have seen a few squibs but only pictures of a double charge. The closeest I have seen to a double charge was my cousin who did not zero his scale before using it to adjust the powder measure. He was loading 40s&w and instead of loading 4.4 or 4.5 like he was supposed to he was loading 6.8-6.9 grains. He was extremely fortunate in that it oly bulged the barrel / chamber to the point that the gun would not cycle in stead of it completely blowing up. The squibs I have seen have been from my own loads. When i firest started loading I had a 550b. I would try to get going too fast for my skill level and would double index the press, thereby missing the powder drop. I upgraded to a 650 and I also learned to visually inspect each case as it goes by.

[abn-rgr]

Ive seen several. Not sure what they were loaded on. Never loaded one personally on my 550 or 1050 (knock on wood). I had two squibs from WWB 9mm (same value pack of 100).

Edited May 18, 2010 by abn-rgr