Unpopular question

[calishootr]

you can talk to them privately, but in my experience, the peoplethat aredoing it, wont listen or 'get it' i know of several cases on a known person who did lots of wierd stuff from having 'chrono' ammo and match ammo to fixing score sheets, the term cheaters never prosper, works to a point, his antics almost cost him a club he was running, hey, if the cheating is rampant,make your concerns known, if nothing happens, show your distain by not tossing any more bucks at it....plenty of other clubs around...

[GrumpyOne]

Just think of how they must feel, winning and not winning. If you have to cheat to win, have you really won? Are they getting any better at "their" sport or just beating the people they are shooting against by trickery or deception? Personally, I believe in Karma...Even though it might not effect them in shooting, somewhere, somehow down the line, it will catch up to them. Life has it little ways of evening up the odds.

But, on the other hand, I would also point it out to them, just in case it was a misunderstanding on their part, and to let them know that it would be watched in the future.....Accountablity is a great justice maker...People don't like to be called out, especially when they know that others are watching because they have a history....

[wide45]

Sorry guys, but I don't exactly lump cheating in as "evil." ...

This is where I think you are wrong.

Cheating ruins the competition for all.

Just think of how they must feel...

Why care how the cheater feels? He does not care about the honest competitor.

Edited April 26, 2010 by wide45

[Chills1994]

usually when something like that happens I'll just slash the guy's tires or pour a five pound bag of sugar into his gas tank.

[Chills1994]

just kidding...had ya'll going didn't I?

technology being what it is you could just videotape him during a match. then edit in some text to the video that keeps track of the shots fired. one! two!...twelve!!!???

then upload the video to youtube. send the guy an email with the link to the video ...just the link no other commentary and see if he responds back.

if he doesn't respond back or does respond back with a really defensive or crappy attitude then you'll know it was intentional and not just by accident.

if he does respond crapily, then you could tell him he is lucky that you didn't email the link out to everyone in your uspsa club right from the get go, but rather gave him the chance to handle it quietly in private.

chances are though that if he is that experienced of a shooter he has already stumbled across this thread or one of his buds sent him the link to this thread.

lastly, i'd like to leave ya'll with this pearl of wisdom that I think I saw as someone,s sig line here:

"competition doesn't build character. it reveals it."

[furyalecto]

Video would be great. I think the sugar and tires would be a bit much.

We have some senior people who are pretty good at counting shots. I am not so great at this.

With new shooters they will usually either discretely let them know that they need to download their mags or mention it to me or other club staff.

With experienced shooters it is usually open season for letting everyone know what they did.

[sfchorn]

I'll just throw this out to ponder.......

Many of us feel that it is not our responsibility to police the actions or behavior of others.

There are groups of competitors that shoot together simply BECAUSE they allow each other to get away with things. While I am not advocating name-calling ("Cheater!"), I do advocate letting them know you do not agree with their.....let's call it "moral flexibility". If everyone called them out on their behavior, it would create an uncomfortable environment for them. They would either play by the rules or quit the sport.

The types of people that intentionally break rules do so because the benefit outweights the cost of compliance. They will quit only when it becomes too expensive for them to continue their unproductive behavior. Expose their actions to the light of day.

By remaining silent, we are giving our tacet approval.

Just my .02 worth.

[dqshooter]

There are unfortunatly those competitors that can't win on talent and skill and have to resort to cheating. I was fortunate enought to have recently sat down with a GM with alot more years of shooting experience than I and some of the things he said I just couldn't believe. I have loaded twelve strickly by accident into my gun when i shot production in the past and it was my call about the extra shot, the RO missed it. I am not a great shooter and I am out to have fun, just being on the range is great. I would quietly let the RM or the CRO at the next stage know. It may have been an accident. If you have to cheat you do not belong in this sport and it is up to us as a group to get rid of these people. Politely ask them not to come back, word travels fast. Get caught on my range and you will never shot there again. We have so many great people in this sport that are fun to shoot with, we do not need the others.

[moverfive]

I have been playing this game for a long time and have shot with, seen shoot, and been around MANY, MANY people.......and yes, I have seen people do things that would equate to cheating (meaning intentional actions) and I have seen people that actually sandbag. However, I could probably count the total of those two groups on one hand and thus collectively represent like 0.00000001% of all IPSC shooters I have been around.

In this specific example, it is a 99% chance this is an error on the shooter's part. Therefore, just go up to him and say something like, "you might want to verify the rounds in your mag as I think you shot more than 11 back there." That will usually suffice and he will probably thank you.

Take it the opposite direction - how many Production/L10 shooters have accidently started with less than 10 in the mag? Doesn't it seem just as likely that more than 10 was accidentally loaded in a magazine?

For those rare folks that actually are a little unethical, they never amount to much.....maybe they get lucky in one match, but that is it. Just treat those situation as an 'oops' on their part and politely let them know of their error. Anything more, doing anything that insinuates the guy is cheating is going to put you in a bad light more times than not.

My stupid opinion......

[CHA-LEE]

I see this as an RO failure. If the RO’s running this guy are not competent in performing their duties then they need talked to and brought up to speed. This can be best done by talking to the RM or MD first and letting them communicate it to the offending RO.

From a personal perspective, if I seen another shooter on my squad blatantly cheating I will talk to them one on one. I don’t have any problem stating the facts that have been observed. If someone is intentionally cheating then they are a cheater and I don’t have one problem calling them out on it.

With all of that said, I have never observed someone intentionally cheating on round count. I have seen some guys accidentally load both too many and not enough rounds in their mags. But most of the time these guys are brand new to the sport and don’t fully realize the rules of their division. Once you show them the rules they adhere to them as they should. I can live with people making mistakes out of ignorance or lack of knowledge. But I have zero tolerance for premeditated cheating.

[lugnut]

Having a private chat with him isn't out of the question...

If he does it enough, someone will eventually notice. Especially if he shoots with real good shooters or ROs.

Yet you would do nothing. Are you the problem, or the solution?

The match officials need to know. Accepting the cheating is going to encourage more.

I'll go with Jake on this one. The ROs need to do their job and I too believe it will catch up with the cheaters. When the peanut gallery starts "ROing" things will get ugly... why not just have spectators yell out "180" calls? or finger calls? We've all seen it right?

I think an interesting conversation after might be interesting to see if he mans up... something like: "Hey I saw your run, can you explain how you broke down that stage? I can't figure out how you did the reloads where you did with just 10 rounds in the mags...."

[vluc]

One of the things I see in some RO's is the lack of awareness of the other divisions. I shoot Production, rarely anything else. I quite often find myself pointing out production related issues with RO's I am working with who only shoot limited or Open. Mag and holster placement, counting of shots, etc. Likewise, since I only shoot Glocks, I have to work harder to be sure I understand 1911's, any pistol with a safety, etc.

That's our job, not just to run a timer and score paper/steel. Constant learning and observation, and missing something like that (if it was missed) is a learning experience for any RO. I don't mind anyone pointing out something I may have missed. Just makes me a better RO.

[AlamoShooter]

Video? camera

[j1b]

I love topics like this - it exemplifies perspective and understanding and the human dynamic.

Me personally, I would do nothing. Like Jake, I believe the person will get what they got coming to them at some point. I tend to believe what comes around goes around.

I get that his actions do to some degree effect others. In terms of how they place in a match.

That said, I like to control what I can control. I would CHERISH knowing the guy is cheating and at some point drop into a conversation something to the affect of "loving kicking the crap out of folks that spend more time focused on cutting corners than actually shooting" or something like that. Subtle hints are perfect at screwing with the guy's head. It'd be like Edgar Allen Poe - the body under the floor boards would drive him nuts.

Ultimately though I'd just work to beat him. Let him cheat. Let him cut. Let him do all that he can do. Folks like that rarely go far in shooting, or in life, and I suspect soon enough he will be a non-factor.

J

[BillD]

I doubt I ever see the guy again. It was a major match and he took home a plaque that should have went to someone else. I seriously doubt because he cheated at shooting his life is going to implode. I don't buy the karma thing.

I know guys who own their own businesses who will lie, cheat and steal for money. They cherish THAT money more than the honest money. They have big houses in the country with swimming pools and big barns full of toys. I don't see any "they're gonna get theirs" in their lives. They live very well and happily.

This guy may be one of those guys. Everytime he looks at the plaque, he probably chuckles a little on how he got over.

[Jake Di Vita]

I doubt I ever see the guy again. It was a major match and he took home a plaque that should have went to someone else. I seriously doubt because he cheated at shooting his life is going to implode. I don't buy the karma thing.

I know guys who own their own businesses who will lie, cheat and steal for money. They cherish THAT money more than the honest money. They have big houses in the country with swimming pools and big barns full of toys. I don't see any "they're gonna get theirs" in their lives. They live very well and happily.

This guy may be one of those guys. Everytime he looks at the plaque, he probably chuckles a little on how he got over.

Perception often doesn't match reality.

[kgunz11]

People crushed by law, have no hopes but from power. If laws are their enemies, they will be enemies to laws; and those who have much to hope and nothing to lose, will always be dangerous.

Neither the few nor the many have a right to act merely by their will, in any matter connected with duty, trust, engagement, or obligation.

It is not, what a lawyer tells me I may do; but what humanity, reason, and justice, tell me I ought to do.

A man full of warm, speculative benevolence may wish his society (USPSA) otherwise constituted than he finds it, but a good patriot and a true politician (competitor) always considers how he shall make the most of the existing materials of his country (sport).

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

[BillD]

I doubt I ever see the guy again. It was a major match and he took home a plaque that should have went to someone else. I seriously doubt because he cheated at shooting his life is going to implode. I don't buy the karma thing.

I know guys who own their own businesses who will lie, cheat and steal for money. They cherish THAT money more than the honest money. They have big houses in the country with swimming pools and big barns full of toys. I don't see any "they're gonna get theirs" in their lives. They live very well and happily.

This guy may be one of those guys. Everytime he looks at the plaque, he probably chuckles a little on how he got over.

Perception often doesn't match reality.

I think you hold the human conscience in higher esteem than I.

[Singlestack]

You can't make a person do anything. You sure can make them wish they had.

[j1b]

I doubt I ever see the guy again. It was a major match and he took home a plaque that should have went to someone else. I seriously doubt because he cheated at shooting his life is going to implode. I don't buy the karma thing.

I know guys who own their own businesses who will lie, cheat and steal for money. They cherish THAT money more than the honest money. They have big houses in the country with swimming pools and big barns full of toys. I don't see any "they're gonna get theirs" in their lives. They live very well and happily.

This guy may be one of those guys. Everytime he looks at the plaque, he probably chuckles a little on how he got over.

Than I guess I don't understand the point of the discussion.

Clearly most, if any of us, don't know who or what the situation is.

At a major match there is an arbitration process that you can or could have followed.

All that said - karma is what karma is. If you don't believe in it then you likely don't participate in it.

I know a guy who won a major match. Won it - not his class, not his division, he won the whole damn match. And some say there were some . . . issues . . . with how he won. And today, he leads a different life. I don't know if he's happy or not. I don't know if he's successful or not. I do know there was a rough patch. And I take that to be all that it is. If he learned, he learned. If he didn't - he didn't.

The guys at Enron had all those houses, the pools, the horses. They too were fat, dumb and happy. Not so much today. A lot of people paid for what they did - ultimately they paid too. And life goes on.

Here is what I know for certain. That when I am ten feet under, no plaque on my wall will ever be mentioned. I earned every one of them, and yet not one of them means anything in the grand scheme of my life. When I'm under, people will remember me for who I am. Not for what I accomplished.

J

[Jake Di Vita]

I think you hold the human conscience in higher esteem than I.

I think you missed what I was trying to say in that post.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Cheating at USPSA is not evil. It's just cheating. No one gets hurt from it except maybe a couple egos. Big deal (it is just a game afterall).

Killing an innocent person is evil. I can't fathom mentioning those two things in the same sentence.

[G-ManBart]

Nothing wrong with quietly walking up to the RO on the next stage and saying "we seem to have a Production/L-10 shooter who can shoot more than 11 rounds between reloads" and let them figure it out. I guess that would mean you'd need more than one Prod/L-10 shooter on that squad so that you don't wind up telling them which shooter it is, but that shouldn't be a problem frequently.

If I saw it once I'd think it might be an accident, if I saw it twice (as in this instance) I'd have a pretty good idea it was intentional. Why? Other than a total newbie, who intentionally shoots their Prod/L-10 rig until slide lock and then reloads? Nobody. Reloads are planned in SS, Prod and L-10, so making that sort of "mistake" twice isn't likely. Since I'm usually shooting Open, I'm a disinterested party as far as the results go...hard to question any agenda I might have in that situation.

If someone is blatantly cheating they are insulting themselves, the sport and everyone at the match. I probably won't confront them about it because that's going to be unpleasant Letting the match staff know, quietly, and letting them handle it just seems like the "right thing to do".

Luckily, most of us are more than willing to call violations on ourselves, so this is rarely a problem. For those few, I don't have any compassion and almost as little ability to look the other way. R,

[John Heiter]

I'm not doubting that this happened, but I have to say that in my experience it is often very difficult to see and know exactly what is going on from the gallery. Even the RO running the shooter has to work hard to stay properly positioned to make calls. Add to that shooters who may not know the rules, may make simple mistakes, and RO's who may not make the right call and there's lots of room for errors. We don't have instant replay and short of a major safety issue I don't think it's right to have scoring or penalty calls coming from the crowd.

If it were me at a major match where I didn't know the shooter well, I would do one of two things.

1. Approach the shooter and quietly and in as non-confrontational a manner as possible ask them how they shot it because it seemed like they fired too many rounds.

2. Approach the RO's on the next stage privately, quietly let them know your concern, and ask them to pay special attention to it to make sure you were mistaken and just hearing things.

I think the guilty should be punished, but I want to be dead certain and have someone else agree with me that they witnessed it too because the penalty for cheating in our sport is extremely high. If I get caught speeding on the way to the match, no one I pass on the way home will ever know. If I get caught cheating on a five point scoring issue, at every match I go to for the rest of my life as soon as I arrive on the stage one RO will lean over to the other RO and quietly whisper "Watch out for this guy, at Area 13 one year he added an alpha to his score sheet when the RO handed it to him to sign".

[Corey]

ive got a silly idea. know the rules of you division and dont break them problemo es solvoed! ( my spanish sucks as you can tell)

[G-ManBart]

What goes down comes around.

There's nothing wrong with telling the RO, but I wouldn't. I don't like tattle tales much more than cheaters.

No, it doesn't really. It often never comes around to the folks that cheat....regardless of sport/activity.

Whenever I see the "I don't like tattle tales" thing it strikes me as a childish thought (no, I'm not calling you childish) that was started by people who cheat to pressure those who don't.

I'm not suggesting anyone make claims they aren't 100% certain of, and I'm not even saying someone should try to get an RO to take action on a stage just completed, but stopping the behavior from continuing isn't being a tattle tale, it's being a decent, honest, fair competitor. You're not choosing their behavior, they are. By cheating they're taking the risk someone will see it and call them on it. You, as the reporter, aren't doing anything other than protecting the integrity of the match/results and you certainly aren't doing anything to the cheater; they did it to themselves.

Ignoring it is condoning it.