BillD Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 I know this isn't going to sit well but this was my first encounter with this and I wanted to test the waters. One is at a major match. One competitor loads more ammo in his mags then he should by the rules. He fires more rounds between mag changes than he should have in the gun. The RO's don't catch it. Do you say something to the RO's or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 What goes down comes around. There's nothing wrong with telling the RO, but I wouldn't. I don't like tattle tales much more than cheaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDB Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Knowing and proving are 2 different things. If you are the only one to catch it I would just tell the shooter to be more careful. About all you can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry LeBeau Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 I know this isn't going to sit well but this was my first encounter with this and I wanted to test the waters. One is at a major match. One competitor loads more ammo in his mags then he should by the rules. He fires more rounds between mag changes than he should have in the gun. The RO's don't catch it. Do you say something to the RO's or not? Genarally the peanut gallery should keep it's mouth shut. I would however confront the shooter [respecfully] and voice yer concerns... It is a GAME and you will ALWAYS have people do things to give them an edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted April 24, 2010 Author Share Posted April 24, 2010 How about if the guy in question wins his class or division? Any difference on how you would handle it, if at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 (edited) Have a quiet word with the CRO, and RM. It's too late for that stage, but they need to know that people are cheating, and it can't continue. Edited April 24, 2010 by wide45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Did he do it once? Was it an accident of just merely putting to many rounds in the mag? Is he doing it every stage? Unless you hear them say something to their buddies like, "watch this I"m going to put 11 in here in case I need it on that star". Then again I'll have to side with Jake, they will get theirs eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 (edited) The stage is done. It is your word against the shooters. Nothing to be accomplished by telling the RO now. If it is a consistent thing mention it to the MD for future use. That being said I would make it a point to just happen to be doing something next to him as he is loading mags and in my best good-natured voice go: "Wow Tom, nice run. I always have trouble on stages like this shooting production/L10. Ten rounds in a mag just never seems to be enough for me. Well, I better get back out there and tape. Have a great match man." Edited April 25, 2010 by Neomet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 My guess from your post is the guy was supposed to be shooting Production or L-10. If so, you can always play dumb and just ask curious questions: Hey, nice shooting...."What is that a CZ/Glock/whatever gun? Are you shooting Limited?" When he says "No, Production/L10" You say, "Really, it looked like you shot 15 rounds in that one mag" Then fill him in on the rules. If a guy really didn't know he was breaking the rules, he should appreciate the lesson. You mentioned it was a Major match, so I would hope he would know the rules, but you never know. If he does know the rule and is breaking it intentionally, that pisses me off. I've met so many great people in this sport that are so generous with advice and conversation ( from the lowest D shooter to the highest GM ) that it annoys me that someone would try and take advantage of other people's good will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Santiago Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Did the shooter do it more than once? Intentionally? I did it ONCE when I first started in production. The scorekeeper asked if I was shooting production and if i knew I shot 12 shots between reloads. I said yes I was and no I didn't realize I shot that many. She said 'welcome to open." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted April 25, 2010 Author Share Posted April 25, 2010 Twice that I know of. He placed very high. Experienced shooter. I see a lot of good people in this sport. I'll watch an A class shooter shoot a D class classifier occasionally but this one is new to me. I want some plywood as much as the next guy but I guess some want it very bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Having a private chat with him is a very reasonable solution. If he does it enough, someone will eventually notice. Especially if he shoots with real good shooters or ROs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 If it was one of our shooters, I would hope that someone would clue in the RO before the next stage. The whole concept of cheating at Level 1 matches baffles me. The overall winner gets the same bag of nothing that the guy in 15th gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Some people need to win but aren't willing to put the work in to do so... That is not something John Wayne would do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Twice that I know of. He placed very high. Experienced shooter. If it were an accident that would be one thing. On purpose? I'd rat him out and not think twice about it. As for the quiet talks, I'm of the opinion that public embarrassment is more of a deterrant. "SO JOE, HOW DID YOU GET 12 SHOTS FROM A 10 ROUND MAGAZINE?" Which also keeps everyone else, who probably noticed too, from thinking it best just to fight fire with fire. "All that is required for evil to triumph..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 I'm going to agree with Jake and disagree with him in the same post... If the shooter isn't doing it in error, he's a small, pathetic individual, and he will get his... Those types usually don't amount to much in the game, much like sandbaggers. What comes around goes around, in those cases... That said - I believe that, much as in golf, it's the job of all competitors to protect "the field" - that is, this guy cheating is affecting other people in the match, even if he's not shooting your division, or whatever. I feel it's your duty to point out the violation to match administration - after you've done that, it's out of your hands and in theirs, and your job is done. You can confront the guy, if you want... you can even tell him that he can fess up to the RM if he likes, or you'll do it for him - gives him a chance to save face, and bump himself into Open like a real man, instead of having his crap called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Most places where I shoot we all RO eachother. In that case, you usually get the laughter starting and catcalls if that were to even happen. Things like "Hey you shooting open?" or "Are you limited minor today?" being yelled at y ou can be rather embarassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Most places where I shoot we all RO eachother. In that case, you usually get the laughter starting and catcalls if that were to even happen. Things like "Hey you shooting open?" or "Are you limited minor today?" being yelled at y ou can be rather embarassing. My favorite line is "man, you are tough- shooting Open with no dot, no comp, no 170 mags and scoring minor". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 I'm going to agree with Jake and disagree with him in the same post... If the shooter isn't doing it in error, he's a small, pathetic individual, and he will get his... Those types usually don't amount to much in the game, much like sandbaggers. What comes around goes around, in those cases... That said - I believe that, much as in golf, it's the job of all competitors to protect "the field" - that is, this guy cheating is affecting other people in the match, even if he's not shooting your division, or whatever. I feel it's your duty to point out the violation to match administration - after you've done that, it's out of your hands and in theirs, and your job is done. You can confront the guy, if you want... you can even tell him that he can fess up to the RM if he likes, or you'll do it for him - gives him a chance to save face, and bump himself into Open like a real man, instead of having his crap called. It's the job of the RO who is the only one on the CoF with any authority or obligation, not the spectators/other competitors. Moral obligation? Maybe. Duty? I don't agree. OTOH I would personally ask the guy if he remembers what he shot and from where so that he and I both know what might have happened. I saw a guy pull his back mag once at a match on an empty gun start. He of course loads that mag with 11 rounds so he doesn't have to barney a round. The RO, a quite talented one, also saw this and counted. After the ULSC he told the guy "good time, but it's not going to be good enough to win open ". The shooter realized what he did and took it graciously. No one thought he was cheating or did it on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 One of the reasons that I would approach this differently than say someone showing up with a 170 in production is quite honestly I realize that there is a possibility that I counted wrong. Maybe not a big chance, but a chance none the less. Calling someone a cheat is right about the worse thing you can say in my book and I'm not going to toss it out there unless I am positive. I don't follow other shooters stages close enough to know if they actually shot 10 or 12 since I am generally too busy trying to get the stage memorized and the RO, who has control of the stage, was certainly paying more attention than me. Not saying it didn't happen here, but having been adamantly positive about many things that I was actually wrong on before in my life I am very cautious about accusing a fellow shooter of something as vile as intentionally cheating like that. Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Having a private chat with him isn't out of the question... If he does it enough, someone will eventually notice. Especially if he shoots with real good shooters or ROs. Yet you would do nothing. Are you the problem, or the solution? The match officials need to know. Accepting the cheating is going to encourage more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 What about the guy that goes to the match shooting Win White Box in a 9mm Open gun and declares he is shooting major at sign up? Is that cheating? What do you do about it? I mean, IMO, it can't get any more blatant/intentional than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Sorry guys, but I don't exactly lump cheating in as "evil." I can see why he does it, but I prefer to work my ass off and win like a man. Seeing how I'm not cheating, I'm not the problem, nor is it my business to try and do the ROs job if I'm not ROing. Especially because during a match I'm focused on my shooting...and I'm not counting the shots of Joe Shooter who is on the stage. Therefore, I'm not going to blow the whistle on something that I couldn't even be sure of. I just said what I would do. If you guys want to go on a crusade of sniffing out cheating and running to the RM, go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 For an USPSA match... 11.7 Third Party Appeals But, be very sure before pushing for... 10.6 Match Disqualification – Unsportsmanlike Conduct I know there have been many cases where people have told me X, Y & Z...and they were just plain wrong about it. They got it in their head that such-n-such was happening, when it wasn't. Giving the RO's a heads up is fine, in my book. Then, they can watch and make whatever call is proper. And, the competitor can can have the recourse of appeal...as it may apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 I guess the patient side of me would come out in this situation. If I saw it once I'd chalk it up as questionable(my mistake or his?). If I saw it twice, I would surely speak to the offender, offering him the opportunity to make things right. The exception to this would be one of our usual suspects. If one of them accidently ran too many rounds, they would immediately be shooting open. One thing for sure though, if I thought someone was cheating, I'd do my damnest to never squad with them again. I have 1-2 people on that list right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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