Wanna-b-speedy (part 3)

[Flexmoney]

One problem with your theory, it is not just the extra time on the one charlie that you shot. When you start the stage you don't know where that charlie is going to be.

I think I know where it will be. It will be on the shot that I rushed when I didn't need too. Or, it will be on the tough target that stretches my ability.

If it's on the tough target...well there is little I can do about that, I'm stuck with the skills I brought with me too the match. But, if it is on the target I rushed...I will have shot faster than I can shoot Alphas. Right?

And, I can easily look at how much time that point down cost me (by figuring the hit factor).

Let say you are shooting a 10hf stage. You are smoking' along and transition into a target in 0.25, and you burn a 0.15 split...getting two Charlies. Now those are pretty fast times, but it really doesn't matter. What matters is that they weren't Alpha hits. They cost you points. Since this is a 10hf stage, each point is worth 0.10 seconds. That 0.10 becomes that break-even point.

The question is...could you have made those Charlies into Alphas by taking up to an extra 0.10 on each shot? That would mean if you could shoot the Alphas with a 0.35 transition and a .25 split, then you would be ahead.

I'm not really suggesting a strategy as much as I am putting the math out there.

If a shooter can shoot an absolute Alpha inside of their break-even time, then that might be a way to go. They would certainly be ahead for it. If the absolute Alpha takes longer than their break-even time then they would be behind.

I'd have to get the books out to do some "risk anaylsis", but I'm pretty sure it would prove out to "don't accept anything but going for the Alpha"...under most circumstances.

[Flexmoney]

It's not the one shot you shot a little slower, it's the 12 you shot slower.

I'm certainly not saying to shoot everything/anything slower.

The goal should always be to shoot each shot exactly as fast as you can. No faster, no slower.

Simply decide if the point down is worth the time gained.

Now how do you apply this new hit factor knowledge to different classes. Example a 10 HF stage for a Gm when shot by a D class shooter?

The only reason to see what other shooters do is to help predict what your hit factor will be.

If I know that a super-squader shot a stage with a 9.5hf, and I know that I usually shoot at about 85% of the super-squader, then I can predict that I will finish with around an 8hf. (85% of 9.5)

[Brazos Custom]

Flex,

Absolute alpha is a good term for it. I think that you will find that if you are shooting for absolute alphas as opposed to trying for alphas on the higher hit factor stages you will factor out lower. Try it on an el pres at your next practice. It is info that you need to know to evaluate how to shoot a stage. I know if I have to shoot an absolute alpha I am aiming at a smaller point on the target - shooting for A's I am aiming at a 6 inch circle (the dot is floating anywhere in that 6 inch circle pull the trigger) shooting for absolute A's I am aiming at a 3 inch circle. I know for me that it takes too long to shoot for absolute A's on a stage that factors about 8 or higher.

[EricW]

[Pardon me while I rip off Tom Dean's idea of circa 2 years ago...]

It would be cool to post tough stage designs and having the GM's on here walk through how they would shoot them and why. This is interesting stuff. My usual MO was to walk up to the start box and just shoot the A zone of everything I saw with total disregad to efficiency or the advantages of just letting some stuff go because of the time "penalties."

[rwmagnus]

EricW

Great idea I'll second that nomination. Seeing the strategy from an accomplished shooter would be awesome.

[Flexmoney]

Try it on an el pres at your next practice.

I have some data handy from an old classifer (from 5/4/02).

I shot it down 7 in 5.73 for a hit factor of 9.2496 (85% for Limited).

Splits were in the low twenties.

Transitions in the high twenties/low thirties.

It is important to note that this stage is a basic "get to the shooting stage". It has a turn and draw, and a reload...other than that, it's shooting. No movement or anything else that we do that adds time on field stages.

Even with this "stand and shoot" stage, I still had over 50% of my time (3.08 sec.) taken up by activities other than shooting (the turn and draw and the reload).

With that hit factor, each point down is worth 0.108 seconds. Since I was down 7, those points cost me .75 seconds. I could have shot it clean in 6.48 and still had just as good of a hit factor.

If we rough this out and say my shooting (and don't include the time used for non-shooting parts of the stage) took 3 seconds, then I could have shot about 25% slower...plenty of time to shoot it clean.

[mcoliver]

[Pardon me while I rip off Tom Dean's idea of circa 2 years ago...]

It would be cool to post tough stage designs and having the GM's on here walk through how they would shoot them and why. This is interesting stuff. My usual MO was to walk up to the start box and just shoot the A zone of everything I saw with total disregad to efficiency or the advantages of just letting some stuff go because of the time "penalties."

I'm sincerely hoping Matt B's vol 6 will cover this stuff and put more of that ghosting effects (novice-masterclass comparison in real-time) as well.

I used to pour over stats before I shot so I'll "know how to shot the COF." This proved disastrous on most of my runs because of 3 things:

1. I still cannot reliably call 100% of every shot

2. Running the COF with only a timer in hand results in a faster time than when I'm using a gun actually shooting it. So I need to figure out where I'm actually loosing time with the gun...

3. If indeed I can reliably figure out my hit factor and compare it with the top shooter, most of the time it really doesn't matter because I'm still at a point where my HF would still not be enough to win the stage.

Now I just go for all A's using as much vision my patience can take.

[Flexmoney]

Points down are the same as time wasted.

The 8hf as a rule-of-thumb has been mentioned a couple of times. Lets look at that.

An 8hf means that each point is worth 0.125 seconds.

Here is my question...

If you can shoot an 8hf, how tough does the target have to be before it will take you more than the 0.125 seconds longer to get the Alpha (instead of the point down)?

[Skywalker]

Flex,

I really appreciate your staying up late at night to speculate on these matters (and bringing them to our attention), since I too am prone to break into small steps all my activities, and think alot about them to become more proficient, believe me.

But, methinks your new signature says already it all!

Otherwise, we can always follow 3QT signature/advice...

Points down are the same as time wasted.

IMO, this is the tag line that sums it up pretty well: we only need to engrave in our minds that slowing down a little to score points is easier and more rewarding than trying to speed up shooting to score a lower overall time.

Anyway, great post!

[Brazos Custom]

Flex,

Now you have half the equation. For the other half - go out and shoot an el pres shooting for absolute A's and see if you can beat a time of 6.45 with 60 points. Make sure you can shoot it 5 times in a row clean or you are really not shooting absolute A's ( you don't want to get lucky one time). Then you will know at least for this drill what works best. Then try it on other setups - shoot full speed, then shooting for A's, then shooting for absolute A's. You will find what works best for you at different distances and different setups.

[Ron Ankeny]

Flex:

You ask

...how tough does the target have to be before it will take you more than the 0.125 seconds longer to get the Alpha (instead of the point down)?

I went from B class to Master in a fairly short time when I stopped trying to shoot all A zone hits by taking corrective action. I shoot with the intent of getting A's, but I do nothing special to insure the hit. Frankly, I don't have it in my style to align the sights and conciously think, "Oh my that might be a C. I guess I should take an extra .125 seconds to tweak the sight picture to insure an A". I trust that my best will be good enough.

For now, I am going to settle for 95 per cent of the points as quickly as I can get them. When I get decent I'll go for 100 per cent of the points.

[DogmaDog]

I stopped trying to shoot all A zone hits by taking corrective action. I shoot with the intent of getting A's, but I do nothing special to insure the hit.

Ron,

Can you explain what you mean by this a bit better. I'm at the point where I'm scoring lots of points--in a recent match I had the highest number of points in 3 of 5 stages, but my hit factors are still in the 50% range on classifiers. There aren't any more points available for me to get, so I need to get faster.

What do you mean by "corrective action"?

Thanks,

DogmaDog

[Flexmoney]

I feel we have a break-down in communication.

What is it you guys think I am saying here?

[DogmaDog]

Well, Flex,

I think you're saying that:

1) a point is worth more time than most shooters seem to think it is worth, judging by their willingness to shoot faster at the expense of points.

2) It is almost always worthwhile to slow down enough to gain reasonable assurance that you'll hit the A zone, than to shoot so fast you only hit the target somewhere (or not at all)

3) By figuring out how much time a point is worth, we can make more informed decisions about how to shoot a stage, or whether to attempt make-up shots, or that sort of thing.

Benos said somewhere that TGO realized he could be sure he was hitting an A just as fast as he could be unsure of hitting the target at all (or something to that effect), which suggests there is not necessarily a need to slow down at all, though I'm pretty sure I can't speed up much without rushing.

I think Brazos is saying he can shoot faster if he accepts some uncertainty about where the shot will go, and the speed increase he achieves outweighs the hit factor increase to be gained by holding out for certain A hits.

Ron sounds like he's saying that he shoots to his index, or to a cadence more than his shooting being driven solely by the sights.

Boy, it's a lot easier just to think I could add a tungsten guide rod and a fiber optic sight, and get a better score.

DogmaDog

[Merlin Orr]

"Boy, it's a lot easier just to think I could add a tungsten guide rod and a fiber optic sight, and get a better score."

What Dog said......

[Ron Ankeny]

DogmaDog:

By corrective action, I mean I used to hold the shots until I had perfect sight alignment and a perfect sight picture. I hadn't learned how to properly use my sights. One of the most valuable posts on the forum (for me) was made by Brian when he explained how to use the sights HERE.

[TDean]

I think the most important point here is that we are talking about being aware of the A-zone as we're shooting. You certainly can't shoot all Charlies and win and you can't afford spending time shooting only Alpha's.

Understanding this HF equation and how it impacts the match results is important but I don't think Robbie and Phil are thinking too hard about it. The best we can do is use this knowledge to boost our awareness of the importance of accuracy as we step to the line.

I don't think we should be actively thinking about "shooting A's" while we're shooting, but if you burn the A-zone importance concept into your mind during the walkthrough for a half-dozen matches it's gotta settle into the subconscious at some point.

[benos]

The day (moment) I realized that I could shoot and A, and know I shot it, as fast as I could hit the target, changed my entire perspective.

But until you reach this realization on your own, you will try to slow down, try to go fast, try to call your shots, or try to calculate how fast you should shoot. And all this trying is not bad, because the struggle will eventually lead you to the ultimate realization of what it's all about. When you understand, the concept of speed will be one you will have nothing to do with.

be

[spook]

When you understand, the concept of speed will be one you will have nothing to do with.

Why does The Matrix come to mind?

[vluc]

From my list of saved BE quotes:

Then, when he realized that he could KNOW he could hit targets as fast as he could "not know" whether he was hitting or missing - he was unstoppable.

********

...every single time before every single string or stage, consciously "tell myself" to relax, don't rush, and trust that if everything I do is the result of what I see - I will be "fast enough."

*********

A good hit factor comes from quickly shooting good points. But quickly shooting good points doesn't come from a good hit factor.

[Jasonub]

Try it on an el pres at your next practice.

I some data handy from an old classifer (from 5/4/02).

I shot it down 7 in 5.73 for a hit factor of 9.2496 (85% for Limited).

Splits were in the low twenties.

Transitions in the high twenties/low thirties.

It is important to note that this stage is a basic "get to the shooting stage". It has a turn and draw, and a reload...other than that, it's shooting. No movement or anything else that we do that ads time on field stages.

Even with this "stand and shoot" stage, I still had over 50% of my time (3.08 sec.) taken up by activities other than shooting (the turn and draw and the reload).

With that hit factor, each point down is worth 0.108 seconds. Since I was down 7, those points cost me .75 seconds. I could have shot it clean in 6.48 and still had just as good of a hit factor.

If we rough this out and say my shooting (and don't include the time used for non-shooting parts of the stage) took 3 seconds, then I could have shot about 25% slower...plenty of time to shoot it clean.

tried the el presidente just awhile ago. usually its 5-7 down and time was around 6.5 seconds.

When i shot it clean it was 7.22 seconds.

This is the first time i tried this drill and it helps build transitions if you concentrate on it.

great drill Ill try to lower the speed next time. turning is taking me 1.33 seconds and the reload is around 1.35, what should i do to make it faster?

[TDean]

Oh heck ya! The El-Prez is a great training tool. First of all, you know what the best shooter's HFs are, so you can compare. It has the basics of the turning, drawing, aquiring targets, transitioning, reloading....it's all there except shooting on the move.

Shooting that sucker for an hour or two will make you a more confident shooter/gun handler.

[Matthew_Mink]

It will also make you realize there are more places to get that higher hit factor than just shooting faster, like the turn/draw and the reload as was mentioned above.

[HoMiE]

And, I can easily look at how much time that point down cost me (by figuring the hit factor).

All this discussion about HF, it only applies to your own HF. The math becomes more complicated once you start to figure out what the HHF for a stage is and how many match points the stage is worth.

[Jake Di Vita]

Actually determining what the HHF may be is one of the first steps in these calculations for me.