Wanna-b-speedy (part 3)

[DeweyH]

I'm certainly not saying to shoot everything/anything slower.

The goal should always be to shoot each shot exactly as fast as you can. No faster, no slower.

Is it possible to shoot each shot exactly as fast as you can get an alpha or is it just get as close as you can to it. If so I would really like to learn that technique. When I practice I try to get a feeling of what tempo I need to shoot to get 90% of the points whether the targets are difficult, easy or a mix. It seems easier for me to only lose 10% of the points than to only take 11% more time. (I think that equals the same hit factor.) If I slow down to make sure I usually slow way down.

My tempo has changed as I have gotten better but not by very much. Most of my improvement has come from getting better at the non shooting stuff.

[j1b]

When hit factor becomes a factor in how I decide to shoot a stage I think I'll be done.

The day I think to myself "A miss is worth this extra second" is a day I don't want to play.

The objective, IMO, shouldn't be to find those times where sometimes speed compromises accuracy or accuracy compromises speed.

The reality is that shooting A's is just as fast as shooting D's.

And there is a component to the total match approach too. If a stage win is your objective than perhaps HHF should be your consideration. I'd live with 12 second places on stages and a single win in the match.

We're shooters. The point of the game is to hit the target as precisely as we can in the shortest amount of time. I hate stages where skipping a target is a consideration. Because that, to me, isn't the point. Hell, if that's the case bag the gun and jump on the Crossfit forum. You'll get in better shape and won't have the higher expenses of ammo.

I believe that for every shooter that is looking to game a stage, figure out HHF, and determine if points or speed matter, there is one shooter that understands the stage can be shot just as fast, with no points down.

I know which I'd rather be.

J

[Flexmoney]

Hmmmm....

I had a bit of trouble getting my idea accross when this thread was new. I don't know that I'd have any better luck now.

It's kinda interestsing to see where other people go with it.

If I were to re-state my thinking a bit...and this is off the cuff now...I'd say that I was wanting to use the math to show that we tend to get sucked into a speed focus all too often...when we really don't need to be.

[HoMiE]

I was going over some of my past match results and most of the courses average in the 7~10HF range (I am looking at the HHF and comparing my HF to it). Not too many HFs over 10 (usually classifiers). A lot of times for me anyways, it is not worth it to have a speed focus. Shooting production, its all about the points, going A-C on every target will kill you. If I had a nickle for every time I tried to hose a stage thinking I could make it up with time, well we know how that goes.

I don't wanns-b-speedy anymore, and slowly it's starting to sink in what has already been said - shooting A's is just as fast as shooting D's.

[Johann the Horrible]

What I got out of the whole thing was: You get to the end of a stage, you notice a Dog in one of the targets and then notice you have a jam do you take the pain of the Dog or the pain of the time? For the rest I take the Alphas as fast as I can and mike gets to look after himself.

[j1b]

Flex,

I probably mistook the intent of the thread. I apologize.

I do know shooters that do this whole hit factor analysis deal and allow that to dictate "points or speed"

That's one that is just tough for me to digest on. But, to a point I myself made earlier - the point is to win the match. Analysis like this probably gives a strategic advantage when it's all said and done. Just not something I prefer to participate in.

Again, sorry if my first post was ugly, rash, or disrespectful.

Jack

[Flexmoney]

I see where you are coming from.

Maybe I can try to share my perspective a bit. I don't know if it will be useful to anyone else. (though it might be a good exercise for me to explore my thinking by putting this to words)

When I wrote these threads (Wanna-b-Speedy Parts I, II & III, and (later?) the Target Spot idea ) I recall that I was coming up through Master class. Having learned to call the shot, I had been advancing through the classes pretty well. I recall that, the first Major match that I shot as a B-class shooter...I won B-class. As an A-class shooter, I won A-class at the first big match. (that is what I recall, anyway...it might have been C & B instead of B & A))

But, I was sometimes having trouble with visual patience and with follow through. I recall shooting this fantastic stage at the Tri-State match in PA. It was a big field course on a big shooting bay. To keep the story short, I nailed all the aspects of that stage that I prioritized. My movement was good, my setups were spot on, stage plan rocked, and accuracy was great on some really tough shots. When it was all said and done, I had a mike on a target that had to be less than 3y away. And, on another target that was maybe 5y...I caught a Delta, but that Delta was waaaay more outside the perf than it was inside.

I was in speed mode and hosed on the "easy stuff". Strader won that stage in 18.5s...I was a good 2.25 seconds faster. I gave up 20 match points because I took the close targets for granted and sprayed on them.

At that time in my shooting, there were other stages I was seeing a similar pattern on. Not too much later, I made Master and went to shoot the Fall Classic in Rolla, MO (JB, I think that is the match you and Bonedaddy couldn't make). I shot with Byrant (BDChaffin) and Matt Mink. After that match, I remember that we were going out to diner with Bryant and his Father. Bryant and I got to looking our score sheets over. That became a game of who had the most penalties. (I won )

Driving back to Ohio, I had some time to really reflect. It was stuff I already knew in my head, but I just hadn't bought into it for real. It was visual patience and follow through. It was defining the target (SPOT). I knew this stuff...I knew how to call the shot. So, why wasn't I able to make it happen? I think the answer, for me, was that I had a speed focus...regardless of what I thought I knew, I had a case of I wanna-b-speedy.

[Flexmoney]

Reading that last post (maybe I should move it) it occurred to me that I didn't address Hit factor at all...lol.

In my mind, I was using the math to help illustrate how a speed focus was hurting my scores. I was trading too many points, for not enough time. The math was another way of looking at it. I could say, "at this hf, I am better off doing X vs. Y."

Since we do so much other stuff on a stage, besides shooting, the little bit of time saved (on the shooting part) often wasn't worth the sloppy points.

I carry a little calculator in the range bag. The reality of that is I've only used that calculator twice in the last 3-4yrs or so. Both times, it was on something pretty goofy.

[AlamoShooter]

Jack = this is my lesson on stage plans and HF ...at this last open nat...If IF I had looked at the HF-'factor' on the last stage of the match that I shot. I would have moved up 30% for the stage by taking a miss on my last shot. The shot was a hard one on the double cover swinger.

I went at the stage with the same mind set you had in your post. = I wanted all the A hits. My Mind locked on getting the hits, after the buzzer it was a good start for me speed was going & my plan was going for me, =I saw only two point off goininto the last position> BUT the mag jammed up the gun ..... and my mind went with the last info lock and kept going until I got the gun working and the A. That A on the my last shot of the last stage cost me 5.4 seconds. I watched it over and over on the video. I did the math -after- the match on what that hit cost me to make ,and it Cost me Big.

Be careful what you ask your self to do ....or you may end up doing it.

[JThompson]

Reading that last post (maybe I should move it) it occurred to me that I didn't address Hit factor at all...lol.

In my mind, I was using the math to help illustrate how a speed focus was hurting my scores. I was trading too many points, for not enough time. The math was another way of looking at it. I could say, "at this hf, I am better off doing X vs. Y."

Since we do so much other stuff on a stage, besides shooting, the little bit of time saved (on the shooting part) often wasn't worth the sloppy points.

I carry a little calculator in the range bag. The reality of that is I've only used that calculator twice in the last 3-4yrs or so. Both times, it was on something pretty goofy.

I've been shooting more for accuracy lately and taking the time to see more. This is right on with this thread because I got beat on time by a Master Class limited guy. He was about 3/4 of a second faster than me, but I beat him, on the stage, because I shot better points. I think I had 6 more points than he did. It was a real charge to win a stage on points to the faster time. He still won the overall match, but I got second... and nipped out two A shooters to win top open. ~Insert B sandbagger comments here~

[HoMiE]

In my mind, I was using the math to help illustrate how a speed focus was hurting my scores. I was trading too many points, for not enough time. The math was another way of looking at it. I could say, "at this hf, I am better off doing X vs. Y."

Since we do so much other stuff on a stage, besides shooting, the little bit of time saved (on the shooting part) often wasn't worth the sloppy points.

I take from this, you are only going to shoot as fast as your current skill level will allow you to shoot. Once you go into a speed focus, the risk vs. reward is not worth it. Shooting a stage 2+ seconds faster is negated once the points lost and/or penalties are figured into your HF. Shooting a stage with a speed focus is just a distraction from tryng to put two As on every target. Although, it is good to understand how the HF works, so in cases of gun problems or funky swingers/turners you can decide wether or not it is worth to go for those points/time.

[spook]

But, I was sometimes having trouble with visual patience and with follow through. I recall shooting this fantastic stage at the Tri-State match in PA. It was a big field course on a big shooting bay. To keep the story short, I nailed all the aspects of that stage that I prioritized. My movement was good, my setups were spot on, stage plan rocked, and accuracy was great on some really tough shots. When it was all said and done, I had a mike on a target that had to be less than 3y away. And, on another target that was maybe 5y...I caught a Delta, but that Delta was waaaay more outside the perf than it was inside.

I was in speed mode and hosed on the "easy stuff". Strader won that stage in 18.5s...I was a good 2.25 seconds faster. I gave up 20 match points because I took the close targets for granted and sprayed on them.

If you will set up 7yd open target array in a match, most will shoot it the same whether the array is a stage by itself, or set up in the middle of a field course with loads of long distance targets. On a long stage it's a damned shame to just throw those easy points away, isn't it?

From my own experience, I shot a long course once at the World Shoot and went for points. Shot like 28 Alphas out of 32 shots and one miss (still think that was a perfect double ). I still ended up pretty well because I never took those close shots for granted. I shot about as many points as Jerry M., he was just a tad faster. Shooting loads of points deliberately on all targets will also give you a little leeway for those few shots where your visual attention is just not there for whatever reason.

Wasting points is just that, a waste...

If you can, take a look at Eric G.'s latest DVD of the Europeans. He has become the definition of shooting for Highest Hitfactor. He just walks that fine line on every stage. It's just insane to see him finish the EC with a 30 round long course shooting 30 Alphas....

Edited February 1, 2008 by spook

[Miranda]

I feel we have a break-down in communication.

What is it you guys think I am saying here?

you are saying:

I have to assume you are going as fast as you can to get your HF.

I am assuming you are not hiting all alphas.

(If you get all As, go faster until you are no longer able to do all As, then re-read)

Any non-alpha is a loss of either time or points.

(it is always both because you can't make up either if you are going as fast as you can)

The very small time spent looking and calling the alpha is not wasted time/points,

because you are not driving your points backwards with the non-alpha.

(the non-alpha is adding negative points/time)

miranda

[moverfive]

Something that I haven't read in any of this is the equipment equation. I was working with a master class limited shooter who couldn't figure out why he wasn't able to obtain my times without sacrificing too many points.....and he really didn't feel he was going too fast.

We took his guns and did some bill drills........I couldn't hold the target shooting at my normal pace with his guns. So he made some modification to the guns (removed some metal, changed springs, and changed his loads). The end result was that now his gun would outshoot him and therefore he was able to start shooting at the pace for which he thought was more natural and yet maintain good points.

As folks skills progress, they just need to make sure their equipment is keeping up. Because if you can outshoot your equipment, it becomes very difficult to properly apply the stuff being talked about in this topic.

[Flexmoney]

In my mind, I was using the math to help illustrate how a speed focus was hurting my scores. I was trading too many points, for not enough time. The math was another way of looking at it. I could say, "at this hf, I am better off doing X vs. Y."

Since we do so much other stuff on a stage, besides shooting, the little bit of time saved (on the shooting part) often wasn't worth the sloppy points.

I take from this, you are only going to shoot as fast as your current skill level will allow you to shoot. Once you go into a speed focus, the risk vs. reward is not worth it. Shooting a stage 2+ seconds faster is negated once the points lost and/or penalties are figured into your HF. Shooting a stage with a speed focus is just a distraction from tryng to put two As on every target. Although, it is good to understand how the HF works, so in cases of gun problems or funky swingers/turners you can decide wether or not it is worth to go for those points/time.

Nicely put, HoMiE. (and worth re-reading).

Since I wrote those up, Steve Anderson showed me the Lanny Bassham stuff on mental management. Again...that is stuff I knew, but might not have really signed off on. Bassham talks of the conscious mind only being able to hold one thought at a time. And, whatever that thought is...the rest of the mind/body work to support it.

So yeah, if speed is my focus...then the math (usually) tells me that my focus is in the wrong place.

(sound like a part IV for mental focus and a part V for bringing it all together might be in order)

[Flexmoney]

If you will set up 7yd open target array in a match, most will shoot it the same whether the array is a stage by itself, or set up in the middle of a field course with loads of long distance targets. On a long stage it's a damned shame to just throw those easy points away, isn't it?

Exactly. I have come to call those close targets..."ducks".

As you pointed out, we are scored on the stage as a whole, using our hit factor.

The "ducks" are the close targets that feel like they ought to be hosed. If they were scored as a stand alone stage, they would carry a very high hit factor. But, they are embedded within a longer stage...with stuff like movement, draws, reloads...stuff that takes up time and lowers the hit factor. So, dropping points on the ducks...targets that are easy to get Alphas on...is a big loser.

[Flexmoney]

I feel we have a break-down in communication.

What is it you guys think I am saying here?

you are saying:

I have to assume you are going as fast as you can to get your HF.

I am assuming you are not hiting all alphas.

(If you get all As, go faster until you are no longer able to do all As, then re-read)

Well, I hope I wasn't saying that, but I might have been at the time. Fast vs. slow...in my mind now...is a speed focus.

[spook]

I feel we have a break-down in communication.

What is it you guys think I am saying here?

you are saying:

I have to assume you are going as fast as you can to get your HF.

I am assuming you are not hiting all alphas.

(If you get all As, go faster until you are no longer able to do all As, then re-read)

Well, I hope I wasn't saying that, but I might have been at the time. Fast vs. slow...in my mind now...is a speed focus.

Exactly, I was practicing reloads tonight and missed a few. I noticed I wasn't paying enough attention to the magwell. So what did I do? I told myself to slow down a bit. Guess what, I started missing them....slower LOL!

[Miranda]

I feel we have a break-down in communication.

What is it you guys think I am saying here?

you are saying:

I have to assume you are going as fast as you can to get your HF.

I am assuming you are not hiting all alphas.

(If you get all As, go faster until you are no longer able to do all As, then re-read)

Well, I hope I wasn't saying that, but I might have been at the time. Fast vs. slow...in my mind now...is a speed focus.

You must be at least this tall to be allowed on this ride.

Hi Flex,

I think I was pointing out that I think your advice about HF is very good.

I hoped I was pointing out that it does not apply until...

you have the Time and the Alphas in contention for your limited abilities.

Ok my limited abilities, however at some point we agree that getting alphas fast is the struggle.

I can hit target centers.... given time....

For your fast versus slow,

It may be obvious, there has to me a reason one does not just unload the magazine as quickly as possible.

why slow down at all? ummmm.... to aim?

The time it takes you to aim and break the shot is your speed limit only only only if

you do not always get an alpha.

You are pointing out a way to test your speed limit.

your math has 4 outcomes:

score up, time up. you can and should shoot faster.

score up, time down !!!! good ! .

score down time up, practice fundamentals....

score down, time down, this is the area you are discussing....

Anyone who has set best time on a stage and did not win that stage

would do well to heed your advice:

Aim. it does not really cost that much time.

miranda

[HoMiE]

Something that I haven't read in any of this is the equipment equation. I was working with a master class limited shooter who couldn't figure out why he wasn't able to obtain my times without sacrificing too many points.....and he really didn't feel he was going too fast.

We took his guns and did some bill drills........I couldn't hold the target shooting at my normal pace with his guns. So he made some modification to the guns (removed some metal, changed springs, and changed his loads). The end result was that now his gun would outshoot him and therefore he was able to start shooting at the pace for which he thought was more natural and yet maintain good points.

As folks skills progress, they just need to make sure their equipment is keeping up. Because if you can outshoot your equipment, it becomes very difficult to properly apply the stuff being talked about in this topic.

I don't buy that. A semi-auto handgun will cycle faster than anyone can pull the trigger and you are not going to be pulling .09 spilts on targets or most targets that have any difficulty. And even the top GMs don't pull splits under .15s for most shots. I would say that the shooter you are referring to probably had a speed focus distracting their shooting. Once they made the changes to their gun, they lost that speed focus and got back to a visual focus and that's where the improvement came from.

Edited February 1, 2008 by HoMiE

[Sunuva]

"Aim. it does not really cost that much time. miranda"

Very Nice

[Chris Keen]

Someone great once said "Your sights should be your speedometer".

You can not out-run your sights if you are paying attention to them. They will tell you when to speed up, or slow down. Use them.

[j1b]

I thought about starting a new thread on this, but this is the thread that gets me thinking about it. If it's thread drift then . . . sorry.

Let's start a new game. Call it "hit the golf ball" How many of us every emphasize accuracy as much as we do speed? Sure, the question is asked all the time (as many times as .45 vs. .40 in guns and ammo magazine) - but how do we define accuracy.

Are you accurate if you can shoot A's at 25 yards? I guess. But in terms of reference to speed that's probably like saying you have a fast draw on a 7 yard target if you do it in 2 seconds. It's relative. .70 seconds is much more in line with what we like.

But we don't tend to think that way. We're always pushing for a tenth of a second here or a tenth of a second there. And those tenths, as Flex (I believe) is alluding to, sometimes cost points.

What if the "ducks" were in fact ducks?

So my new game is hit the golf ball. I want to practice accuracy so hard that I can hit a golf ball 9 times out of 10 at 25 yards. I want to be able to hit a golf ball 7 times out of 10 at 50 yards. I want to be able to hit a golf ball 10 times out of 10 at 7 yards.

Seem unreasonable? Maybe, but boy does that change your perspective on accuracy. At least it does me. And if I go into a stage knowing I can do those things, a head shot at 15 yards is no longer a tough target as long as I see what I need to. And I'll KNOW what I need to see, because I've had to see much more to accomplish the tougher shots. Does it over-emphasize accuracy? Sure, but almost to the extent that most of us over-emphasize speed . . .

We don't need that kind of accuracy in our game. We just don't. But accuracy is grossly underrated in our sport, and by virtue of that folks can move up the charts by simply shooting faster.

What if you over emphasis accuracy like most of us do speed?

I don't worry about speed anymore. When the buzzer goes, I want to go fast. My mind says go fast. I trust I'm going to go as fast as I can. But I hate misses. And the fastest run is always spoiled if my friend MIKE visits. So why not uninvite Mike. Take him out of the equation - so Mr. Speedy can visit without interuption.

***God that's a wierd post. I need to sleep more I guess***

J

[HoMiE]

Bassham talks of the conscious mind only being able to hold one thought at a time. And, whatever that thought is...the rest of the mind/body work to support it.

So if you have speed on the mind, your not going to get good points. If you have accuracy in your head, your not going to have the greatest time. It's points divided by time in this game. I think it is a bit confusing to say "Shoot As as fast as you can", since that sentence has the word "fast" in it and I think that's why so many associate with a speed focus. Getting back to what Bassham says, anything other than worrying about making every shot count is counter-productive. You have to see yourself making those As and trust speed/time will take care of itself.

[moverfive]

Something that I haven't read in any of this is the equipment equation. I was working with a master class limited shooter who couldn't figure out why he wasn't able to obtain my times without sacrificing too many points.....and he really didn't feel he was going too fast.

We took his guns and did some bill drills........I couldn't hold the target shooting at my normal pace with his guns. So he made some modification to the guns (removed some metal, changed springs, and changed his loads). The end result was that now his gun would outshoot him and therefore he was able to start shooting at the pace for which he thought was more natural and yet maintain good points.

As folks skills progress, they just need to make sure their equipment is keeping up. Because if you can outshoot your equipment, it becomes very difficult to properly apply the stuff being talked about in this topic.

I don't buy that. A semi-auto handgun will cycle faster than anyone can pull the trigger and you are not going to be pulling .09 spilts on targets or most targets that have any difficulty. And even the top GMs don't pull splits under .15s for most shots. I would say that the shooter you are referring to probably had a speed focus distracting their shooting. Once they made the changes to their gun, they lost that speed focus and got back to a visual focus and that's where the improvement came from.

You don't have to buy it. But it is fact, the shooter got much faster. And as I said, it was me that was working this shooter.....so I know why he improved. The equipment is an integral part of the equation in trying to find that happy medium between speed and accuracy and this is an area often ignored by many lower classified shooters.

And to clarify a point - 'outshooting' a gun means you are waiting on the gun to return to the original point of aim......versus the gun waiting on the shooter to get ready to pull the shot.