Wanna-b-speedy (part 3)

[j1b]

Something that I haven't read in any of this is the equipment equation. I was working with a master class limited shooter who couldn't figure out why he wasn't able to obtain my times without sacrificing too many points.....and he really didn't feel he was going too fast.

We took his guns and did some bill drills........I couldn't hold the target shooting at my normal pace with his guns. So he made some modification to the guns (removed some metal, changed springs, and changed his loads). The end result was that now his gun would outshoot him and therefore he was able to start shooting at the pace for which he thought was more natural and yet maintain good points.

As folks skills progress, they just need to make sure their equipment is keeping up. Because if you can outshoot your equipment, it becomes very difficult to properly apply the stuff being talked about in this topic.

I don't buy that. A semi-auto handgun will cycle faster than anyone can pull the trigger and you are not going to be pulling .09 spilts on targets or most targets that have any difficulty. And even the top GMs don't pull splits under .15s for most shots. I would say that the shooter you are referring to probably had a speed focus distracting their shooting. Once they made the changes to their gun, they lost that speed focus and got back to a visual focus and that's where the improvement came from.

The equipment is an integral part of the equation in trying to find that happy medium between speed and accuracy and this is an area often ignored by many lower classified shooters.

Apparently it's also ignored by top shooters as well, since many change divisions and still yet manage to be competitive. Rob Leatham has won nearly every national title in action pistol one can imagine.

My belief is that he somehow had more to do with that then the equipment did. Though they were all Springfields

Could be wrong though. If so, someone please tell Rob, Jerry, Todd, Max, Travis, Phil et. Al. they aren't supposed to win outside of their specialty. It would make life easier for the rest of us!

J

Edited February 2, 2008 by j1b

[Flexmoney]

I'd like to think that this series of threads is more about the mental, than the physical. In my mind, it is for the shooter that is already technically strong. The shooter has the ability, but has mental hurdles that are getting in the way.

[boz1911]

I'd like to think that this series of threads is more about the mental, than the physical. In my mind, it is for the shooter that is already technically strong. The shooter has the ability, but has mental hurdles that are getting in the way.

Mental hurdles are an issue for most of us and we handle them in different ways. I feel personally they are getting smaller and easier to negotiate. I like to focus on some aspect of my shooting before the start of a match. This seems to deny my brain any room for negative thoughts.

As far as the speed/points issue, I like to use our weekly Tuesday night match to push beyond what I think is a normal speed for me. Out of control chaos you might say. Then the monthly matches I try to bring the control back in place.

[spook]

The equipment is an integral part of the equation in trying to find that happy medium between speed and accuracy and this is an area often ignored by many lower classified shooters.

My experience is the exact oppsoite.

I feel that the technique and practice are the major part of the equation and many lower classified shooters are often overlooking those elements and seek their improvement in equipment.

And to clarify a point - 'outshooting' a gun means you are waiting on the gun to return to the original point of aim......versus the gun waiting on the shooter to get ready to pull the shot.

I remember Jerry Miculek once stating he could never outshoot his guns. That included his S&W revolvers. There's no cycle time you can change in revolvers and the gun doesn't work for you. You have to return the gun by yourself. He said that that those sights were always there waiting for the next shot.

If you're "waiting" on the gun to return, that's probably something you can fix with a bunch of timing drills.

Also, sometimes the waiting part is more of an illusion than an actual hold back.

[Chris iliff]

I don't believe that fixing equipment/upgrades are the answer. I do believe that practice is the answer. With that said, I shoot a plate machine some and started to notice that I was on the next plate way before the dot settled enough to get the shot off. Simply put, I was faster than the gun, an older STI Competitor. I sent the gun off, got some updates, and viola, now the gun is waiting on me. For the big dogs my gun might have needed nothing, for me it needed what was done. So many variables come into play who is to say. Maybe another 100,000 rounds and I would have discovered something that negated the necessity of updating. I dryfire a lot and practice when money allows. I'm sure all the technology money could buy wouldn't improve my scores all that much. I am also sure all the live fire practice money could buy would improve my scores a lot. I know it sounds like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, but I'm not. I'm saying equipment is important, practice is more important. Both should be as good as time and money allow. I believe MOVERFIVE hits the nail on the head.

[Michael Carlin]

...

I don't buy that. A semi-auto handgun will cycle faster than anyone can pull the trigger and you are not going to be pulling .09 spilts on targets or most targets that have any difficulty. And even the top GMs don't pull splits under .15s for most shots. I would say that the shooter you are referring to probably had a speed focus distracting their shooting. Once they made the changes to their gun, they lost that speed focus and got back to a visual focus and that's where the improvement came from.

Ec McGivern's records now broken by Jerry Mikulek were for 5 shots in 9/20ths cutting a playing card at 15'. That is .45 second divided by 5 or .09 per. Therefore Mikulek's must be faster?

McGivern is reported to have told one of the gun writers of my youth that he started out with .45 autos but they would not cycle fast enough.

I think it possible that some shooters might be held back by their equipment. I know for a fact that my Clark Long Heavy Slide wad gun will not cycle as fast as i can, and I am probably below the 50%ile.

Just MHO

[HoMiE]

I'd like to think that this series of threads is more about the mental, than the physical. In my mind, it is for the shooter that is already technically strong. The shooter has the ability, but has mental hurdles that are getting in the way.

So when are you going to start Wanna-b-speedy IV?

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts as well as others on dealing with the peer-pressure and how you overcome that wanna-b-speedy mentality.

Edited February 3, 2008 by HoMiE

[Flyin40]

Flex,

How long had you been shooting(USPSA) when you realized this?? How long before you overcome it??

This thread decribes my shooting to a T and several others from Ohio and surrounding states. I know it takes no longer to shoot an A than it does a C but I really honestly don't put much effort into it. To get to the next level its absolutely required, I know this. I'm thinking that I'm getting to a point in my shooting that I really don't have to worry much about anything except the shooting. I don't really need to worry about movements, stage breakdown or basic fundementals(not that I won't continue to work on them its just I'm confident in my ability in those areas). My mind was cluttered with a thousand things that I have to think about working on. Thats why I'm interested how far you were in your shooting, I know you said Master Class. Is it a natural progression???? You get the basics, stage breakdown, target to target movements, transitions, reloads down and your mind starts to clear because those other things don't overload your brain. This allows everything to slow down and gives you the ability to shoot an A instead of a C in the same amount of time. Last yr I really wanted to work on accuracy but stage breakdown and getting rid of wasted movement kind of took over. What I'm getting at is maybe this it something that would be considered advanced.

This thread really makes sense to me

Flyin

Edited February 4, 2008 by Flyin40

[Chris iliff]

Hey Spook, did it ever occurr to you that those people that want to change thier equipment constantly ,...burn out and leave the game. Maybe that's why you don't see much of those types past the C/B level. I have a friend like that. No matter how good or bad his match went, he was convinced it was equipment.

He shoots less and less. No amount of encouragement from me or anyone else seems to matter. This is a great thread, and as I understand, it's suppose to be the mental process side/not physical processes, Flex wants to explore. On some people the mental side is not mature enough to to understand some basic tenets. Of course equipment matters, you have to be mature enough mentally to know when and what to do. Much like MOVERFIVE helping a master class limited shooter.

[el pres]

I don't buy that. A semi-auto handgun will cycle faster than anyone can pull the trigger and you are not going to be pulling .09 spilts on targets or most targets that have any difficulty. And even the top GMs don't pull splits under .15s for most shots. I would say that the shooter you are referring to probably had a speed focus distracting their shooting. Once they made the changes to their gun, they lost that speed focus and got back to a visual focus and that's where the improvement came from.

I could see it working for him, changing his focus with the "trick of the day"!!!

As for HF, I already have too much in my mind at a match to be calculating HF's in the background. I like to

do it after the match too see where if anywhere I could have gained by giving up some points but thinking ,"this ones

got to be faster, faster " has never helped "me" in the past. I like the idea (not that I suscribe) that if your shooting more

than 85% of the Alphas you might be going too slow...

We have all seen those guys that get all Alphas every match at their own 65% pace, They are good shooters but will never

progress from the level they are at because they cant let themselfs get a little looser in sight acknowledgment..

I shoot for the best Alphas I could get !

[Rocket35]

I think some of us develope in a see-saw fashion. Accuracy then speed then accuracy then speed. Each time gaining profisciency exponentially until our overall skills improve. Or at least that is what I like to think. Once you are attaining 90%+ of the total match points, start kicking in the afterburners till you are getting into the 80% range and then work on accuracy again at that current speed level. At least that is what I am trying to do. I also think or study the courses post match. I am also too busy with the match details and socializing to break out the calculator!

[el pres]

I think some of us develope in a see-saw fashion. Accuracy then speed then accuracy then speed. Each time gaining profisciency exponentially until our overall skills improve. Or at least that is what I like to think. Once you are attaining 90%+ of the total match points, start kicking in the afterburners till you are getting into the 80% range and then work on accuracy again at that current speed level. At least that is what I am trying to do. I also think or study the courses post match. I am also too busy with the match details and socializing to break out the calculator!

Totally agree on the see-saw !! Altough I think you could look at it another way, its the lack of 100% visual patience. As

you get better you get faster but always keeping it at the edge, never excepting your limitations...basically always slacking

the points by the same percentage...

[moverfive]

Apparently it's also ignored by top shooters as well, since many change divisions and still yet manage to be competitive. Rob Leatham has won nearly every national title in action pistol one can imagine.

My belief is that he somehow had more to do with that then the equipment did. Though they were all Springfields

Could be wrong though. If so, someone please tell Rob, Jerry, Todd, Max, Travis, Phil et. Al. they aren't supposed to win outside of their specialty. It would make life easier for the rest of us!

J

Guess I am wrong, then. I always thought most top shooters customized all aspects of their equipment to fit them and their style of shooting.

I guess I can only talk to my experience and the folks that shoot around here. I know that as I progressed up the classification ladder, my equipment configuration changed......what I liked/worked for me as a C-class shooter became unacceptable as an A-class shooter, and so on. As an example, I can remember that when I started getting the skills to shoot faster, I found that switching from a 135gr to a 125gr bullet and to a new powder had a dramatic affect in my ability to shoot accurately at the timing I had progressed to.

But obviously from the comments, I am the exception.

[Flexmoney]

As for HF, I already have too much in my mind at a match to be calculating HF's in the background.

Well, that is not what I was suggesting that people do. It does seem to be what people are coming away from this thread with. Poor communication on my part, when I first wrote this.

I like to do it after the match...

That is a great time to do it. And, then relate that information to your future shooting. When you get to a future stage, you ought to be able to say..."hey, I've seen a stage like this and my past performance tells me that if I shoot this stage the same, I can expect the same results (unless I get lucky or unlucky this time)."

...too see where if anywhere I could have gained by giving up some points...

Hmmm...I'm trying to use the math to show the exact opposite...in most cases (but not all, of course).

More often, shooters push the speed, at the sake of points...hurting their score. Thus the "wanna-b-speedy" lambasting.

...but thinking ,"this ones got to be faster, faster " has never helped "me" in the past.

I like the idea (not that I suscribe) that if your shooting more than 85% of the Alphas you might be going too slow...

This was great advice for me...for about a while. Then, I came to realize that...for me...that advice was just no good. It's based on speed, any way you cut it. Go faster...or go slower...it's a focus on speed.

We have all seen those guys that get all Alphas every match at their own 65% pace, They are good shooters but will never progress from the level they are at because they cant let themselfs get a little looser in sight acknowledgment..

I shoot for the best Alphas I could get !

Right. That is the other end of the spectrum. These shooter often come from a accuracy based background, it seems. Maybe bullseye, PPC, tin cans...or they just learned to shoot well by being still a lot.

This series of threads really isn't about them. As I mentioned before, it is more geared toward my experiences...which was having the skill sets in place at...say...the Master level...but, just not getting the points to go with the speed mentality.

[Flexmoney]

moverfive,

I know what you are saying. I've seen it too.

When the "shorty" Open gun first started coming out I saw people shooting them that just didn't benefit. The guns had too much "action" for them. I'd see them take a shot and then just kinda sit there as the gun quivered. They were waiting for the dot to settle down before they took the next shot.

And, I have experienced the same. I have an open gun that is really light (Glock) and only has a two chamber comp on it. It's work to shoot that gun. Whereas, my buddy's old school full-size Caspian open gun is a dream to shoot, in comparison.

If I were to shoot that on a regular basis, there would be some equipment changes, and some shooter changes, that I would make.

These threads are a bit more geared to the shooter that has all that figured out already...

[el pres]

Wow, I feel so dissassembled !!

Flex, I did'nt think you meant it that way I was just giving my feel on it..

The only other time I really looked into HF based shooting was while reading Saul's book..(thinking Practical)

His technique of it is at the match in realtime...

[Flexmoney]

I'm thinking that I'm getting to a point in my shooting that I really don't have to worry much about anything except the shooting. I don't really need to worry about movements, stage breakdown or basic fundementals(not that I won't continue to work on them its just I'm confident in my ability in those areas). My mind was cluttered with a thousand things that I have to think about working on. Thats why I'm interested how far you were in your shooting, I know you said Master Class. Is it a natural progression???? You get the basics, stage breakdown, target to target movements, transitions, reloads down and your mind starts to clear because those other things don't overload your brain. This allows everything to slow down and gives you the ability to shoot an A instead of a C in the same amount of time. Last yr I really wanted to work on accuracy but stage breakdown and getting rid of wasted movement kind of took over. What I'm getting at is maybe this it something that would be considered advanced.

Yep. All this came about as a result of me having most of the "stuff" down pretty well. And, this could be evidenced by just looking at the times that are coming in on the stages. Times are great, points suck...no win.

You (or me) are a great example. You (or any solid Master/GM) have the skills to really burn up some shooting. For example, if we had a stage that was simply an 8y Bill Drill...and invited everybody in the world to shoot it...who would win? It could be just about anybody, right?

How long had you been shooting(USPSA) when you realized this?? How long before you overcome it??

I'm not sure when I realized it. It was always "right there". When did I overcome it...well, I'll let you know when it happens. It is something that is so hard to burn in, yet so easy to let go of.

I know it takes no longer to shoot an A than it does a C but I really honestly don't put much effort into it. To get to the next level its absolutely required, I know this.

Those two sentences say a lot. Do we really believe it? Do we believe it enough to turn over our shooting so that we can allow ourselves to trust that the speed will be what it is...allowing/freeing our mental power to find the target SPOT...have the visual patience to let the gun get there...and have the follow through to keep the gun there until the gun lifts in recoil?

If we do believe, what steps do we need to take to make it happen ?

[Jake Di Vita]

I think the first step goes back back to wanna-be-speedy 2....Find the exact point of each target you want to shoot.

[moverfive]

moverfive,

I know what you are saying. I've seen it too.

When the "shorty" Open gun first started coming out I saw people shooting them that just didn't benefit. The guns had too much "action" for them. I'd see them take a shot and then just kinda sit there as the gun quivered. They were waiting for the dot to settle down before they took the next shot.

And, I have experienced the same. I have an open gun that is really light (Glock) and only has a two chamber comp on it. It's work to shoot that gun. Whereas, my buddy's old school full-size Caspian open gun is a dream to shoot, in comparison.

If I were to shoot that on a regular basis, there would be some equipment changes, and some shooter changes, that I would make.

These threads are a bit more geared to the shooter that has all that figured out already...

But that was why I made the original comment using the example of the master class shooter.......there are a lot of people, even at the upper skill levels, that don't think about or even realize that there is an equipment piece in this equation. And therefore when these folks begin to hit a brick wall, they think the problem is 100% shooter related and then almost alway say - 'guess I will just have to slow down to get my hits.'

So not meaning to cause a thread drift - just making the comment that from my experience that when people really begin to deal with this issue, they need to ensure that their equipment isn't hindering their abilities......and also realize that what worked before, may not work for you today.

[Flexmoney]

Brad,

You bring up a valid point. I guess where I am at with this thread...in my mind anyway...is that the shooter is beyond that already. Either he/she can shoot a Bill Drill with 0.15-0.18 or better splits (and get their Alphas)...or they can't. If they can't, that is a whole 'nother thing.

----------------------------

Let me give an example that I remember.

I recall coming into a position where I had wide open targets, placed on a diagonal. The entrance to the position was such that I took the targets far to near. They were open enough and easy enough that this was going to go rather quickly. My transitions were fast. My splits were fast. And, my hits were within two inches of each other. Yet, on one target that stands out in my mind, those hits were in the Delta. My mind had decided to break that shot as soon as the gun hit the brown, and I returned the gun to the exact same place for the second shot. I had snake-eyes, but they were on the outside of the target. I was shooting Limited, so I gave up 6 points on that target alone.

How long would it have taken me to have the visual patience to bring the gun to the center of the Alpha, instead of just shooting when I got on brown? The truth is, it might not have taken me any extra time at all....if I had defined the target SPOT to be the center of the Alpha in the first place. Since my mind was in wanna-b-speedy mode, brown was good enough. If it was going to take me a bit more time...how much time did I have?

Down 6...lets say that it was 12 hf stage (pretty high)...I would have had up to (an extra) half a second to get those shots in the Alpha. (1 / 12 = 0.0833, 0.0833 * 6 = 0.50)

Heck, in a half second, I could have fired two more shots into the Alpha and still been ahead (as I recall, I almost did). But, the better thing would have been to just take the gun to the A-zone in the first place.

[j1b]

Apparently it's also ignored by top shooters as well, since many change divisions and still yet manage to be competitive. Rob Leatham has won nearly every national title in action pistol one can imagine.

My belief is that he somehow had more to do with that then the equipment did. Though they were all Springfields

Could be wrong though. If so, someone please tell Rob, Jerry, Todd, Max, Travis, Phil et. Al. they aren't supposed to win outside of their specialty. It would make life easier for the rest of us!

J

Guess I am wrong, then. I always thought most top shooters customized all aspects of their equipment to fit them and their style of shooting.

I guess I can only talk to my experience and the folks that shoot around here. I know that as I progressed up the classification ladder, my equipment configuration changed......what I liked/worked for me as a C-class shooter became unacceptable as an A-class shooter, and so on. As an example, I can remember that when I started getting the skills to shoot faster, I found that switching from a 135gr to a 125gr bullet and to a new powder had a dramatic affect in my ability to shoot accurately at the timing I had progressed to.

But obviously from the comments, I am the exception.

Brad,

I'll back up. Yes, I believe there is a degree of this that takes place. I understand that tweaking is a component of the game, and I've participated in it to some degree or another.

Just two quick observations and then I'm letting go of the drift. It is, in my observation, all too common for shooters to make their equipment their upgrade in shooting. And I see more times than not that upgrade rarely ever improves their shooting ability. Which means they perform at the same level, which means they are now not only dissappointed in the performance, but can't understand why investing in new equipment didn't change the outcome . . .

Last, Brian wrote in his book that one miss in a match makes any equipment advantage null and void. So for me, I try very hard to take equipment discussions out of play. Yes, in certain circumstances it makes a difference. But in your bullet weight example, I suspect if you switched back and shot 200 rounds through the gun, you could compete at the same level as you do today with your current bullet. I believe in my heart of hearts that it is you making the difference, not the changing of the bullet (or gun, or comp, or sight, or magwell etc. etc.)

Ok Flex - I will thread drift no more on this one! I Promise!

J

[Flyin40]

Those two sentences say a lot. Do we really believe it? Do we believe it enough to turn over our shooting so that we can allow ourselves to trust that the speed will be what it is...allowing/freeing our mental power to find the target SPOT...have the visual patience to let the gun get there...and have the follow through to keep the gun there until the gun lifts in recoil?

If we do believe, what steps do we need to take to make it happen ?

I have been tossing this around since you posted it. I think for me and maybe most there is no trust in our speed. Today I had a great dryfire workout. About 15 mins. into the session this thread popped in my head. I told myself I was fast enough so the only thing I was visualizing was pulling the trigger on the spot I had picked. I can remember shooting last yr with Matt Trout and he said that he quit worrying about his time. The only thing he worried about was shooting A's. The time would be there because he was confident in his abilities in those areas.

I know I try to go fast. I'm thinking that when I start trusting that my speed is there and I quit trying to go fast and I'll relax and be able to pick a spot and shoot A's. The visualization in a stage will be important because that is where you see your movements and program attacking the stage. The difference between this and how I usually do it is that I think about attacking the stage while shooting which makes me try. Still alot to think about on this one

Just rambling

Flyin

Edited February 9, 2008 by Flyin40

[onyx]

TARAN BUTLER said it best. When he let all the thinking go and just relaxed and visualized he shot a lot better. Just a thought simple but very true in many sports.

[AWLAZS]

http://www.doublealpha.biz/index.htm?fs=pa...tip_max.htm#top

Check out what Max has to say

[Gallow]

Brad,

You bring up a valid point. I guess where I am at with this thread...in my mind anyway...is that the shooter is beyond that already. Either he/she can shoot a Bill Drill with 0.15-0.18 or better splits (and get their Alphas)...or they can't. If they can't, that is a whole 'nother thing.

Even for lower-level shooters the quest for speed is delusive. I remember I had just got my "B" classification and was eager for my "A". I shot some classifier--can't remember which one; not much movement, lots of targets within 7-15 yards, a few no-shoots. Others at my level were shooting it in about 10 seconds. I shot what I experienced as a blazing fast run, didn't blow the two reloads, but had had many C and D hits, plus a no-shoot, in about 12 seconds. I was disgusted. The RO took pity on me and told me to shoot it again, just as an excercise. Don't dawdle, but get all A hits. I calmed down, did the run again in what seemed like slow motion, got all my A hits, and the time was a little under 9 seconds. That experience really turned the light on for me. It wasn't that I didn't already "know" what I learned that day, but it hadn't indwelt in me until then. I knew I had my A hits, but looking at the timer was a revelation. I don't mean to say I never rushed again, but it was a real corner turned.