G-ManBart Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 I've noticed what seems like a trend, but may be just coincidental, and I'm wondering what other folks do about it. There are a lot of shooters who finish shooting, drop the mag, rack the slide, drop the hammer and are holstering the gun before you can even finish saying "if you are done, unload and show clear". It bothers me because these are usually experienced competitors, not newbies, and they should know better. I'd rather not have to be a jerk and rewind to "SHOW CLEAR" until they get the point, but I'm thinking that's the only right answer. Anybody come up with a better way to handle this? I don't think I'm being overly sensitive, and it's certainly not a power thing like "you will do as I say"...it's a safety thing and I don't take that lightly. If it happens to be someone that's a bit newer I'll say "hey, not a big deal, but some of these guys will get annoyed if you get ahead of their range commands"...and see how they respond the next time. If it's someone I know well I'm not too worried about hurting their feelings by making them show clear again, but those folks that are in the middle pose a problem. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 I compliment them on their swift ULSC procedure and ask them to do it again so that I may see. It's not a dick move, it's just me doing my job. I know it is ultimately the shooters responsibility to be sure that their firearm is clear when they leave the line, but I don't want it happening on my watch. Most shooter will gladly do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 I just repeat the command: "If you are finished unload and show clear...." Occasionally I've had to preface that with "Stop" if they were already holstered and moving on to something else -- picking up mags, walking toward the targets, etc. I don't take it personally, I may even try to crack a joke about it: "I'm German, and we tend to get picky about actually fulfilling our job requirements/checking off all the items on our checklist...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 I like Nik's line about "just doing my job". This reminds me of me, doing the same thing to Brian McCormick (sp?) at an Area 1 match years ago. He must have had enough of "us" doing "speed ULSC" and pointedly admonished me for it while having me ULSC again so he could verify the commands compliance. I understood and felt embarrassed knowing that he,like all Range Officers are just trying to help us have a safe match experience. For the record I did apologize for making his job more difficult and have done my best not to repeat that situation. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 I guess "Whoa there Speedracer!" isn't exactly what you're looking for? Ha! Thanks for posting this one. I like Nik's response as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 As a shooter I tend to get a little um... quick with my ULSC if I've blown the stage. Just want to get going, move on, whatever you want to call it. Usually that mindset only shows up at local matches, thank goodness! When I'm shooting a major match I don't do squat until the RO tells me to. When I'm done I'll drop the mag and wait for them to issue the commands. I don't even rack the slide until they tell me Unload. I'm left handed so at Show Clear I pull the slide back and roll my hands over so they can see in the ejection port. IF clear, hammer down, holster is when I release the slide, pull the trigger and holster my gun. At a major match the second to last thing I want to do is irritate the RO's and the last thing I want to do is DQ because I went stupid. When I'm running the squad as the RO and somebody gets ahead of the range commands I have them do it over. I've said things to the effect of "Well, I know it's empty because it didn't go bang when you pulled the trigger but for safeties sake we're going to do that again... slower." Then if it's a new/er shooter, as soon as time permits I'll explain to that person why we did it over. I've seen two DQ's by people getting in a hurry and not dropping the mag. Rack the slide to show clear, pull the trigger, BANG! Once by shooter who had been competing for a couple years, the other had been competing for a couple decades! You aren't being anything but safe to make even an experienced competitor do it again. Safe for you, safe for him/her and safe for all the other competitors. As the shooter... I've had RO's get ahead of me. Last year at the Indiana Section I pushed the slide stop out of my gun mid stage. The knuckle of my right thumb hits it and I didn't have the end cut down on the one that was in the gun. I managed to finish the stage ULSC and was attempting to reholster. The slide stop was hanging down and I couldn't get the gun in the holster. The RO thought I had it in (he was on my right side) and issued the Range is Clear. I promptly yelled "Stop! No it isn't!" Kinda freaked the RO out when the shooter started yelling. I had him come around so I could show him my problem. Took a bit but I got the gun holstered securely and he reissued the Range is Clear. He thanked me for stopping anyone from going downrange until my gun was secured and we went to score the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkatz44 Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 As a shooter I tend to get a little um... quick with my ULSC if I've blown the stage. Just want to get going, move on, whatever you want to call it. Usually that mindset only shows up at local matches, thank goodness! When I'm shooting a major match I don't do squat until the RO tells me to. When I'm done I'll drop the mag and wait for them to issue the commands. I don't even rack the slide until they tell me Unload. I'm left handed so at Show Clear I pull the slide back and roll my hands over so they can see in the ejection port. IF clear, hammer down, holster is when I release the slide, pull the trigger and holster my gun. At a major match the second to last thing I want to do is irritate the RO's and the last thing I want to do is DQ because I went stupid. When I'm running the squad as the RO and somebody gets ahead of the range commands I have them do it over. I've said things to the effect of "Well, I know it's empty because it didn't go bang when you pulled the trigger but for safeties sake we're going to do that again... slower." Then if it's a new/er shooter, as soon as time permits I'll explain to that person why we did it over. I've seen two DQ's by people getting in a hurry and not dropping the mag. Rack the slide to show clear, pull the trigger, BANG! Once by shooter who had been competing for a couple years, the other had been competing for a couple decades! You aren't being anything but safe to make even an experienced competitor do it again. Safe for you, safe for him/her and safe for all the other competitors. As the shooter... I've had RO's get ahead of me. Last year at the Indiana Section I pushed the slide stop out of my gun mid stage. The knuckle of my right thumb hits it and I didn't have the end cut down on the one that was in the gun. I managed to finish the stage ULSC and was attempting to reholster. The slide stop was hanging down and I couldn't get the gun in the holster. The RO thought I had it in (he was on my right side) and issued the Range is Clear. I promptly yelled "Stop! No it isn't!" Kinda freaked the RO out when the shooter started yelling. I had him come around so I could show him my problem. Took a bit but I got the gun holstered securely and he reissued the Range is Clear. He thanked me for stopping anyone from going downrange until my gun was secured and we went to score the stage. I too had a similar experience. A guy shooting a local match on my squad just finished a stage. He had a great run and a smoking time. He was excited that he just racked the slide, without dropping the magazine and fired a shot into the berm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 (edited) The RO thought I had it in (he was on my right side) and issued the Range is Clear. I have a very prominent official where I shoot and through watching him I learned to not say the range is clear until the shooters hand leaves the gun. I used to holster and kind of leave my hand on my gun as a rest before I finally figured out he was waiting on me to remove my hand. That is now how I roll when I RO. But to answer the OP I see the commands repeated quite regularly when somebody gets ahead of the RO. Edited March 6, 2010 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 I usually give the commands again..they get the hint that I need to see. I got most of the day, so I am willing to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 "Okay, now can you please 'show clear'?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 I've had to dq a friend who was a little quick on unloading and showing clear and dropping the hammer --- not dropping the mag is not the way to speed up the process..... The process exists to protect everyone and can save the competitor from a DQ -- so it actually benefits the shooter to avail themselves of a second pair of eyes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wurm Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 I was talking to the match director I RO with a few weeks ago for IDPA and asked him if he wouldn't mind specifically mentioning the unload and show clear command at the shooter's meeting. Just a friendly reminder to the shooters to wait for the actual commands and not get ahead of us ROs. Lately I've been shooting indoor practices and matches and when I shoot inside I tend to wear my big, non electronic hearing protection. I've had some of the ROs busting my chops (in a friendly way) about just standing there sometimes waiting patiently because I didn't hear their commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9146gt Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 Why do you not have to pull the trigger on a revolver after show clear? Or why do you have to do it on a semi auto? Just does not make sense to me. When all my semi autos have a mag disconnect and a decocker. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 Why do you not have to pull the trigger on a revolver after show clear? Or why do you have to do it on a semi auto? Just does not make sense to me. When all my semi autos have a mag disconnect and a decocker. Tom Because that's the rule. The rules were made to make everyone safe, with any kind of gun being used. A.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9146gt Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Why do you not have to pull the trigger on a revolver after show clear? Or why do you have to do it on a semi auto? Just does not make sense to me. When all my semi autos have a mag disconnect and a decocker. Tom Because that's the rule. The rules were made to make everyone safe, with any kind of gun being used. A.T. So the chamber is empty , there is no mag in the gun and the Hammer is down on a semi and you have to pull the trigger. The cylinder is empty the Hammer is down and you do not have to pull the trigger on a revolver?? HUH. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 The way it was explained to me... "Let me say this applies to a revolver being shot double action and would not apply to a SA revo. To my knowledge when the hammer on a revo is down, it's down. There's only one way to get it there and that's pull the trigger. After the last shot is fired the hammer isn't cocked again. It's in the fully down fired position so there's no need to pull it again. There aren't any made with cylinder safeties or decockers. With semi auto guns when you rack the slide you cock the firing parts. The only sure way to get them into a fully non-firing condition is by pulling the trigger. Mag safeties are a mechanical device that can fail leaving a gun that could fire. Decockers don't fully drop the hammer. If they did, the gun would go off. Again, it's basically a mechanical system that could fail. The rules were written the way they are to provide the maximum level of safety to everyone. A gun that has been decocked by pulling the trigger is in its safest condition." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Why do you not have to pull the trigger on a revolver after show clear? Or why do you have to do it on a semi auto? Just does not make sense to me. When all my semi autos have a mag disconnect and a decocker. Tom Because semi-autos feed from magazines. If the shooter forgets to drop the mag, and the shooter and RO both miss that fact, then at hammer down there's a shot -- and a match dq. Essentially, hammer down serves as a failsafe, to ensure that the chamber won't be loaded when dropping the slide. On a revolver with an empty cylinder, the action of closing the cylinder can't pick up a round of ammo.... Hence the difference.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catfish Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I inform them it is a race to get the gun out of the holster, not back into it... if someone races to their holster I will make them take the gun out and show me slowly. Usually gets the message across without having to resort to being a Range Nazi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 7, 2010 Author Share Posted March 7, 2010 Wow, that's quite a few responses in just a short period of time! Okay, I guess I'm not alone in this one. Typically, but certainly not always, I have as much or more experience as the person who's my RO, but that doesn't matter. I want that second set of eyes. When I'm done, I flip the safety on, drop the mag, stash it in a pocket, flip the safety off, eject the round, move the gun and my hands towards the RO and make sure they can clearly see the chamber....even if I have to move it around to get light in there. I figure if we're both looking at it, there's a pretty good chance it's clear. So far, I haven't had an RO get on my case because I'm slow and methodical about ULSC. When I'm the RO I really don't want to have Speedy rack the slide and I see a round, but don't have enough time to stop them from dropping the hammer I like the idea of keeping it light..."stop, my eyes aren't that fast, show me clear again please" or something like that and then I can tease them about it later...lol R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Repeat "ULSC" and emphasize SHOW CLEAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 (edited) Keep in mind, you are only supposed to use official commands, especially during the course of fire which isn't over til they hoslter, right? Anything like "show me again please", or "slow down buddy" could be interference or coaching, in the strictest sense, and some yahoo might try to wrangle a reshoot out of a bad stage because you said something non-standard and "messed with his mind, before he could decide to re-engage that one standing popper".... a stretch, I know. I usually just repeat the entire command with a strong ephasis on "show clear"... they usually get the idea. I don't think that out of all the things the RO does, asking to actually see the empty chamber and verify clear is being a range Nazi. Its one of the most important safety steps we have to maintain a safe cold range. Edited March 7, 2010 by sfinney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 7, 2010 Author Share Posted March 7, 2010 Keep in mind, you are only supposed to use official commands, especially during the course of fire which isn't over til they hoslter, right? Anything like "show me again please", or "slow down buddy" could be interference or coaching, in the strictest sense, and some yahoo might try to wrangle a reshoot out of a bad stage because you said something non-standard and "messed with his mind, before he could decide to re-engage that one standing popper".... a stretch, I know. I usually just repeat the entire command with a strong ephasis on "show clear"... they usually get the idea. I don't think that out of all the things the RO does, asking to actually see the empty chamber and verify clear is being a range Nazi. Its one of the most important safety steps we have to maintain a safe cold range. Good point. I think they'd lose that one 100 out of 100, but it's better to avoid entirely. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear23 Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I just repeat the range commands again at ULSC. No biggie. I don't think anyone would take offense to it. If they do, tough shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Keep in mind, you are only supposed to use official commands, especially during the course of fire which isn't over til they hoslter, right? Anything like "show me again please", or "slow down buddy" could be interference or coaching, in the strictest sense, and some yahoo might try to wrangle a reshoot out of a bad stage because you said something non-standard and "messed with his mind, before he could decide to re-engage that one standing popper".... a stretch, I know. I usually just repeat the entire command with a strong ephasis on "show clear"... they usually get the idea. I don't think that out of all the things the RO does, asking to actually see the empty chamber and verify clear is being a range Nazi. Its one of the most important safety steps we have to maintain a safe cold range. I'm pretty sure that this rule deals with that eventuality: 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmaass Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 "Loading and unloading are not speed events!" - Range Officer at Ashland Invitational 1994 Quotes Archive: http://www.k8nd.com/quotes.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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