Starting Open, Old School vs New advice (38s v 9M).

[lee blackman]

"If you were starting Open Division today, anew, knowing what you know, with a solid budget for just about anything on the market, where would you start? 38 Super or 9 Major? Any particular maker of gun?"

Paraphrasing, but its a question I've been asking around the last few months. I had the opportunity to ask several very great shooters at Double Tap last weekend. Not surprisingly, I get a vast amount of opinions. You would think that I would get completely different answer for every shooter I ask. But there are two common answers I'm get more frequently. To make it simple, I'm just going to say that there are two common "schools of thought" I keep running into.

There is what I call "old school" or traditional knowledge to go with the 38 super, or the growing "new school" thing to go with the 9 major. Both having their advantages and disadvantages which can be read in countless threads here on the forum. But there was a trend I didn't expect.

Many of the "old school" shooters, who might be running any given name brand custom (some very keen on Beddel) pistols say they would keep it simple and get a stock long STI gun (Trubor or Grandmaster) in 38 super, and have a reputable gunsmith tune it and replace trigger guts and run it all day. The "new school" shooters are all telling me Akai 9 Major... I had more than one "new school" shooter tell me that his X-Brand (And boy I was surprised the names) 9 Major is now his backup since he got his Akai because it was so flat.

Now I'm not trying to offend or stir anything or get into the X-Brand is better than Y-Brand discussions that are already posted. I'm really just looking for continuing input. Do you follow more to the "old school", "new school", or have a completely different opinion?

[lcs]

38SC IMM by SVI. Flattest gun I have ever shot. Powder is 3N38 with MG 121. It will jar your teeth, but shoots like a dream.

[ctay]

I run 38sc. I have also shot a very flat and smooth 9major gun.

Truth is that both will run but one of the most common reasons for gun failures is poor ammunition. For me it is much easier to load 38sc at 100% than it is to load 9major to 100%. Just more things to worry about with 9major. Many people are successful making quality 9major so it can be done - just a little more difficult in my opinion.

I would also take builder suggestions with a grain of salt. I tried to be very analytical with my first open gun purchase (Akai) only to be disappointed. Sold it for a loss and had a local builder build my next two guns. Couldn't be happier and wish I had just gone to him first. There are lots of options out there so make sure you get to actually see the builders work up close before you buy!

[kneelingatlas]

I theory I know that 38 has to have greater potential to run flat because of the increased case capacity since you can fit more of the same powder (or slower powder) so you can waste more powder with more barrel ports to keep the gun flatter, BUT I have yet to shoot a 38 I would prefer to my 9.

Strangely the 38s I've shot didn't seem to be using the full potential of the round whether they were shooting too heavy a bullet, using too fast a powder, etc.

I know the feel is subjective, but I think it's pretty hard to beat a 9mm with 115s over 9 grains of slow powder (I use SP2, but have used slightly less HS6 with similar results) through a barrel with no holes and a good 3-4 port comp.

[New Old Guy]

I like Mr. Blackman's question, as I am thinking about jumping into an Open Gun. (with no clue about what I need, can use, or the "Hot Setup") Not sure about the comment "Will jar your teeth, but shoots like a dream" means, there is obviously more to shooting an Open gun than SS, sooooo, is a "Shorty" in 9mm with Poppelholes, & 3-4 ports the perfect gun, or should a NEWBIE just get an entry level Open like an STI Trubor in 38SC or 38Super? In over my head!

[Ssanders224]

I mean, lets be honest.

The ONLY disadvantage to 38SC is the cost of the brass. If that does not concern you, there is zero reason to consider a 9mm.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I would suggest a 9mm open gun with a good comp setup. My gun shoots flatter than most and I get comments all the time on how flat it shoots. Powder choice, bullet weight, recoil spring, mainspring and firing pin stop profile all can help as well. A Tru Bor is a good starter setup until you find what you like. I vote for 9mm. Thanks, Eric

[StraightUp_OG]

Tastes great!

Less Filling!

Get what you think is best but I am a 38SC guy.

[Parallax3D]

I mean, lets be honest.

The ONLY disadvantage to 38SC is the cost of the brass. If that does not concern you, there is zero reason to consider a 9mm.

The way reloading supplies are right now, that is a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage.

BTW - KC Escubio just won Open at A5 with a 9mm Glock. 2nd place was Shane Coley, and I think he was running .38S, so... As usual, it's the indian, not the arrow. If you're a good shooter, it doesn't matter what you shoot.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Parallax3D

[B45C22]

No, that's not the only disadvantage to sc. Most people who try and convince everybody that sc is better will tell you that you can shoot SC brass more times than you can 9mm. What they don't take into consideration is that in order to do that you or somebody else has to dig around on the ground to pick it up. That is the biggest disadvantage. It is too hot here and the grass is too thick to be digging around for sc brass. 9mm is free for me so I just let it lay. It used to be that sc had better powder choices, but that isn't the case anymore. There are plenty of good powders for 9mm major these days and most any smith worth his salt can make one that runs just as reliably as a sc.

I think you already have a 9mm minor gun, don't you? I would stick with 9mm just so you don't have to change your mags around or buy new ones. It really is that subjective.

[BSeevers]

You know KC is special. When I see another National Champion with a Glock in any caliber Ill be blown away. Of course Max or Eric G could convert to Glock and win. What he does demonstrate is it really doesn't matter its the indian not the arrow.

Well I wouldn't call 9mm Open, new school. How long has it been legal? 10 years? Maybe a little less but my last gun could have been a 9mm and it wasn't. It's at the smith getting a new top end and I use old SV mags so I could make it any caliber and its gonna be 38 Super. I get 30+1 if I want and more important I can use any powder/bullet that I want.

I pick up brass for 3 people and I like it cause its free crunches to get back in shape.

[38supPat]

9mm major goes all the way back to the mid '80s. Not really all that new.

I did go with a Trubor .38 and judging by the comments on my videos I'd say it is pretty flat. Im running ot stock with the only addition being an aftec extractor. The internals are stock, all I did was clean up the hammer hooks and I have a 2lb trigger.

[Ssanders224]

No, that's not the only disadvantage to sc. Most people who try and convince everybody that sc is better will tell you that you can shoot SC brass more times than you can 9mm. What they don't take into consideration is that in order to do that you or somebody else has to dig around on the ground to pick it up. That is the biggest disadvantage. It is too hot here and the grass is too thick to be digging around for sc brass. 9mm is free for me so I just let it lay. It used to be that sc had better powder choices, but that isn't the case anymore. There are plenty of good powders for 9mm major these days and most any smith worth his salt can make one that runs just as reliably as a sc.

I think you already have a 9mm minor gun, don't you? I would stick with 9mm just so you don't have to change your mags around or buy new ones. It really is that subjective.

Your right. There are two disadvantages. The price of the brass, and the fact that you have to pick it up...

Since picking up brass is so uncommon.

[BrianATL]

$149 /1000 for brass and limited brass suppliers for Supercomp vs 9mm brass ranging from free to 30 ish /1000 and available everywhere is the difference. Feel and flatness and all the other terms thrown around can be accounted for in gun setup.

[ctay]

No, that's not the only disadvantage to sc. Most people who try and convince everybody that sc is better will tell you that you can shoot SC brass more times than you can 9mm. What they don't take into consideration is that in order to do that you or somebody else has to dig around on the ground to pick it up. That is the biggest disadvantage. It is too hot here and the grass is too thick to be digging around for sc brass. 9mm is free for me so I just let it lay. <snip>

But that is the same as saying the cost of brass is the only disadvantage isn't it?

9major is tough on the brass. You need to have good practices when reloading to be sure to get consistent rounds. That may include a need to roll size 9major brass. 38sc is not as picky. Usually no need to roll size, never any crimped brass, essentially never wears out, cases are virtually never full regardless of powder. Ammo is the #1 reason for gun problems and 9major is more difficult to reload properly. For me 38sc is worth the extra cost.

To be sure I am jealous of my 9major friends when it comes to a lost brass match. That gets painful quickly with 38sc.

[lcs]

No, that's not the only disadvantage to sc. Most people who try and convince everybody that sc is better will tell you that you can shoot SC brass more times than you can 9mm. What they don't take into consideration is that in order to do that you or somebody else has to dig around on the ground to pick it up. That is the biggest disadvantage. It is too hot here and the grass is too thick to be digging around for sc brass. 9mm is free for me so I just let it lay. <snip>

But that is the same as saying the cost of brass is the only disadvantage isn't it?

9major is tough on the brass. You need to have good practices when reloading to be sure to get consistent rounds. That may include a need to roll size 9major brass. 38sc is not as picky. Usually no need to roll size, never any crimped brass, essentially never wears out, cases are virtually never full regardless of powder. Ammo is the #1 reason for gun problems and 9major is more difficult to reload properly. For me 38sc is worth the extra cost.

To be sure I am jealous of my 9major friends when it comes to a lost brass match. That gets painful quickly with 38sc.

I disagree. You don't need to roll size 9 brass and it wears just as long as 38S brass. I have reloaded my 9 brass five or six times now. A lot depends on the load combination. I run 115s with HS6 at 175 PF. Its a myth that 38S brass is stronger than 9 brass. Just so happens I shoot a lot indoors and save my 9 brass.

[chuck s]

To me it was more about reloading. I load a lot of 9mm minor and did not want to change set ups on my 1050, which is a pain. I just readjust the powder drop and change powders.

[Sarge]

Just RO'ed Area 5. By what I saw 38 is indeed a dying breed. I'm not saying there were no 38 Open guns. Rather I am saying there were a shit ton of 9MAJOR guns. It is painful to watch a 38 guy at a local match rooting for brass instead of paying attention to scoring and having more fun. I don't like to waste money. It's a good thing because I don't have much to waste. But if I were wealthy enough to just order 38 brass by the ton and leave it lay, then I would shoot it for sure. But if the budget was a concern you can't beat picking up 9mm brass from a PD for next to nothing or picking it up after a local match for free.

As for the name brands, many have hit it right on the head. I like Matt Cheely guns and I recommend them but I know guys who have one and it doesn't seem to run as good as mine. I know a local who has had quite a few open guns to try, maybe because he is a great shooter and they let him test them? I'm still not sure he has settled on one yet. Seems to be a little something wrong with all of them. lol. I saw another guy and he had a Predator Tactical gun and loved it. He had tried Akai, FGW, etc.... and none of them impressed him.

My guess is you will watch this thread play out and in the end it will be split down the middle and you will just have to make your own call on what works for you.

[lee blackman]

Just RO'ed Area 5. By what I saw 38 is indeed a dying breed. I'm not saying there were no 38 Open guns. Rather I am saying there were a shit ton of 9MAJOR guns. It is painful to watch a 38 guy at a local match rooting for brass instead of paying attention to scoring and having more fun. I don't like to waste money. It's a good thing because I don't have much to waste. But if I were wealthy enough to just order 38 brass by the ton and leave it lay, then I would shoot it for sure. But if the budget was a concern you can't beat picking up 9mm brass from a PD for next to nothing or picking it up after a local match for free.

As for the name brands, many have hit it right on the head. I like Matt Cheely guns and I recommend them but I know guys who have one and it doesn't seem to run as good as mine. I know a local who has had quite a few open guns to try, maybe because he is a great shooter and they let him test them? I'm still not sure he has settled on one yet. Seems to be a little something wrong with all of them. lol. I saw another guy and he had a Predator Tactical gun and loved it. He had tried Akai, FGW, etc.... and none of them impressed him.

My guess is you will watch this thread play out and in the end it will be split down the middle and you will just have to make your own call on what works for you.

Is that an over exaggeration or fact there there were no 38super guns? At Double Tap, of the three open shooters on my squad, I was the only one shooting 9 major. Of the other people I asked around not in my squad the majority of them were still shooting 38 super. Three of the grandmaster level shooters including the overall champ were all shooting 38 supers. I read online how no one shoots 38 super anymore, and read statements like the one you just posted. But when I make a conscious observation, I find its not yet the case.

Edited June 17, 2014 by lee blackman

[kneelingatlas]

People are creatures of habit, once you've invested in a custom 38 super pistol, mags, tons of brass and finally have it set up just right, it sure takes a lot to give that up.

I look at the ratio of new guns I see, and also the ratio of pistols for sale in the forums.

[BSeevers]

9mm major goes all the way back to the mid '80s. Not really all that new.

I did go with a Trubor .38 and judging by the comments on my videos I'd say it is pretty flat. Im running ot stock with the only addition being an aftec extractor. The internals are stock, all I did was clean up the hammer hooks and I have a 2lb trigger.

Wasn't that was limited by OAL and bullet if I remember, could be wrong about bullet weight, Yea Paul Miller and the gang loved to shoot those 9mm Open guns.

I meant when it became legal legal, two rulebooks ago I think.

[Shoot-em-All]

38SC - brass cost sucks and yes the " reload ten times can happen" but a match with lost brass you will never see that 10 times! Nor most people who pick it up. For what you pay for a big match + hotel + gas etc. that gun needs to run 100% the 9mm folks will claim that but watch those shooting 9mm major and see how many have issues. I have two top ends for my SVI 38SC for match's and 9mm for playing around and in case the Starline brass runs out!! 38SC shoots more "mellow" in my setup. 9mm + casepro rolled brass & aftec extractor I am OK for a local match. And autocomp vs 3n38

[Shadow]

Old school 5", 4-hole 38 SC shooter here.

If Super/Supercomp is a dying breed, I haven't seen it in my area. To stereotype, around here older more experienced shooters shoot Super/supercomp, new/younger shooters shoot 9mm guns and always say they got them to save money on brass.

While 9mms can be made to run, the majority of choking open guns I see are 9mm. YMMV.

If you can afford Super/supercomp brass, there's no reason to go 9mm.

[Sarge]

Just RO'ed Area 5. By what I saw 38 is indeed a dying breed. I'm not saying there were no 38 Open guns. Rather I am saying there were a shit ton of 9MAJOR guns. It is painful to watch a 38 guy at a local match rooting for brass instead of paying attention to scoring and having more fun. I don't like to waste money. It's a good thing because I don't have much to waste. But if I were wealthy enough to just order 38 brass by the ton and leave it lay, then I would shoot it for sure. But if the budget was a concern you can't beat picking up 9mm brass from a PD for next to nothing or picking it up after a local match for free.

As for the name brands, many have hit it right on the head. I like Matt Cheely guns and I recommend them but I know guys who have one and it doesn't seem to run as good as mine. I know a local who has had quite a few open guns to try, maybe because he is a great shooter and they let him test them? I'm still not sure he has settled on one yet. Seems to be a little something wrong with all of them. lol. I saw another guy and he had a Predator Tactical gun and loved it. He had tried Akai, FGW, etc.... and none of them impressed him.

My guess is you will watch this thread play out and in the end it will be split down the middle and you will just have to make your own call on what works for you.

I said, " I'm not saying there were no 38 Open guns. Rather I am saying there were a shit ton of 9MAJOR guns".

Is that an over exaggeration or fact there there were no 38super guns? At Double Tap, of the three open shooters on my squad, I was the only one shooting 9 major. Of the other people I asked around not in my squad the majority of them were still shooting 38 super. Three of the grandmaster level shooters including the overall champ were all shooting 38 supers. I read online how no one shoots 38 super anymore, and read statements like the one you just posted. But when I make a conscious observation, I find its not yet the case.

[HI5-O]

_{Sounds like the choice comes down to paying for 38S/SC brass or using/getting cheap 9mm brass.}

_{I shoot 38SC in open and like it. Where I shoot, we all pickup our brass at the end of the match and look like a flock of birds when the brass is spread out on the table.}

_{If most of my matches were lost brass matches, then I would go with 9mm.}

_{Shooting 9mm in Production minor, I found out the various 9mm cases all slightly vary in rim/case diameters and sometimes enough to not go easily into the shellplate (S1050). So, if I were to shoot 9mm major in open, I would definitely use a Case Pro to roll size the brass.}