advice on a bolt-action?

[1911vm]

More advice needed now on a bolt-action. I think I have narrowed down between two. Both in .308 savage model 10 and Remington 700. From what I understand out of the box nothing can beat savage, but 700 has more accessories then any thing else. Please feel free to pass on any advice I need as much info as I can get especially from people with more knowledge then I have. Thanks

[twodownzero]

The Winchester Model 70 is far superior to either of them. If I had to choose between what you have listed, I'd pick the Savage if for no other reason than that it is cheaper.

My suggestion to you is to get a beat up action and have a custom barrel installed. Nothing else really matters as much as the barrel, and no factory barrel will be anywhere near as tight as a custom chambered match barrel from one of the big names.

[mscott]

What are you going to do with it? Are you going to shoot 100 yards mostly or go to events where you shoot 1,000? If it's a rifle just to have one and you don't plan on modifying it buy whatever catches your eye. Rem or Savage can both shoot well out of the box. If you are planning on building it into a tactical rifle you'll likely want a new stock and bottom metal. The Rem has the most going for it there. Here's a forum more dedicated to just that sort of rifle: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm

[RufDog]

consider this- Benchrest shooters used to compete with the 40x & now use actions based on the 40/700. They arent using M70s or salvages.

[smokshwn]

The Winchester Model 70 is far superior to either of them.

This is a very generalized quote to have any meaning for your purposes. Tell us a little more about your planned use for this rifle. Will remain in its stock configuration? Are you looking for a base rifle to build up a custom rifle from? What distance/type of shooting are you going to do? What is your budget? Don't forget to include glass etc. etc.

The two actions you have listed are very good actions, each with some pro's and con's. Some time spend reading at snipershide as listed above will help you out tremendously. There are a couple of links at the bottom for you.

My suggestion to you is to get a beat up action and have a custom barrel installed. Nothing else really matters as much as the barrel, and no factory barrel will be anywhere near as tight as a custom chambered match barrel from one of the big names.

You can spray paint racing stripes on a 74 pinto but it won't make it a race car. A good barrel is very important but if the action is not true and square, if the barrel threads do not mate correctly, or the bolt lugs don't make appropriate contact, rebarreling an action may not show much improvement at all.

If you do decide to build a rifle on a donor action you can basically go one of two ways. You can use a takeoff donor action as mentioned above. Have it trued up and then rebarreled. Or you can go with one of many custom actions (Surgeon, Lawton, Phoenix etc) which are built true in the first place.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthread...rue#Post1518090

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthread...rue#Post1519565

[1911vm]

The Winchester Model 70 is far superior to either of them.

This is a very generalized quote to have any meaning for your purposes. Tell us a little more about your planned use for this rifle. Will remain in its stock configuration? Are you looking for a base rifle to build up a custom rifle from? What distance/type of shooting are you going to do? What is your budget? Don't forget to include glass etc. etc.

The two actions you have listed are very good actions, each with some pro's and con's. Some time spend reading at snipershide as listed above will help you out tremendously. There are a couple of links at the bottom for you.

My suggestion to you is to get a beat up action and have a custom barrel installed. Nothing else really matters as much as the barrel, and no factory barrel will be anywhere near as tight as a custom chambered match barrel from one of the big names.

You can spray paint racing stripes on a 74 pinto but it won't make it a race car. A good barrel is very important but if the action is not true and square, if the barrel threads do not mate correctly, or the bolt lugs don't make appropriate contact, rebarreling an action may not show much improvement at all.

If you do decide to build a rifle on a donor action you can basically go one of two ways. You can use a takeoff donor action as mentioned above. Have it trued up and then rebarreled. Or you can go with one of many custom actions (Surgeon, Lawton, Phoenix etc) which are built true in the first place.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthread...rue#Post1518090

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthread...rue#Post1519565

Thanks for input

This would be a tactical type rifle out to 500-600. I am trying not to call it a sniper rifle but something in that category. This is not for hunting but more accuracy type matches.

I have been reading some of the links and I am not sure what exactly a custom action means?

[RufDog]

There is more nonsense over on those "sniper" forums than any place on the web. It is full of what legitimate folks call "Gear Queers". If you found any truth there it would be coincedience. Getting a salvage (IMO) is like deliberately getting a ruger P89 for USPSA. Now I realize those salvages have been propped up like dems regarding Obama's health care plan but you get what you pay for. I'd be impressed to know anyone who has shot thousands with either of the previous mentioned firearms w\o issue.

I realize the M70 has its fans & to challenge its utility has incited many a web riot, however, it will always be somewhere behind the 700 in most gunsmiths eyes. The extractor claims are unfounded. You give up way more reliability in the fact that it is a controlled round feed than you could ever gain with the extractor. If you want to know stress shoot a match with a 70 & have it bind on the clock.

The 700 is the design of choice by benchrest, snipers, after market action manufacturers and gunsmiths.

I have found factory 700 barrels are very accurate, the 5R is of even higher quality and a person can always go aftermarket. With PROPER stress free bedding (not pillars) & lapped lugs you can determine a barrels potential. It wont matter how hot you get it. Keep in mind of the few things that cant be mass produced is; a good bedding job and lapped lugs.

If you just wanted a gun to pop 5 or 10 rounds a year & spend most of your time talking about it, get anything & few will likely ever know the difference. If you want something you can count on, get a gun with a 700 pattern action have it properly bedded & lap the lugs then get an 11.5 degree crown.

Do I have guns other than 700s? Yes. Do they shoot good? Yes. Infact, I have more non 700s. Fine pieces that I am fond of infact. I would not want to have to wrestle with any of them under match (or other) stress though.

[big_kahuna]

Consider your budget constraints also.

If money is no object then a true custom action (e.g. Stolle, Hall, Panda, etc.) with a reputable barrel (e.g. Krieger, Lilja, etc.) will give you some peace of mind that your individual parts are considered world-class. Hypothetically speaking, a full-house custom rig might also include a bedding block at the the barrel base allowing both the action and the barrell to float and resonate freely. This no-holds-barred project would need to be rebedded every time you shoot out your barrel, but so what. $$$$ but man you have some WOW factor in your rifle. Quarter MOA benchrest precision is is achievable if you have enough time, knowhow and money.

If money is a concern, there are reasonably inexpensive production rifles that make sub-MOA even without blueprinted actions. In all fairness this is a crap shoot. You might get lucky and get a ringer or you might get a POS. But, you can get reasonable precision for less money if you are careful and lucky. Bang for the buck, I really think the Remingtons and Savages are good candidates for you to consider.

I wanted a utility/precision rig in 308 for 100-600 primary ranges and capability to 800 if I did my part. Being a cheapskate, I bought my production-line Remmy 700 VS in 308 eons ago to use as an action donor... I expected the hammer-forged OEM barrel to pretty much suck (because all hammer-forged OEM barrels suck, right?)... the plan was to shoot the stock barrel out in practice and then blueprint the action as part of a complete rebuild. I also planned to replace the non-adjustable H-S Precision Varmint stock with something better, because adjustable stocks are "just cooler" and I wanted detachable box magazines. I did use decent glass... a Leupold Mark 4 M1 day optic on lapped Mark 4 rings and bedded bases. Well, the rifle shot 3/4 MOA out of the box with Federal GMM 308 and also with 168 SMK / 4064 handloads 20 mils off the rifling. The crappy stock barrel turned out to be not as crappy as I thought. The non-adjustable stock has also not been a problem, but that may just be my inexperience talking. If and when I shoot out the barrel, I will probably do the blueprinted rebuild... but I hear that the stock 308 barrels can last over 10K rounds so it could be a while. For now I am happy to shoot the rifle as is.

I bought my daughter a Savage 10GY youth rifle (with accutrigger) in 223. This was a $379 rifle. I mounted a cheap 3-9 Variable Sightron scope, Burris Signature Zee rings on epoxy-bedded cheapie Weaver bases. $300 for optics and mounting hardware. On bags at 200 yards during my ladder test, 69 SMK handloads in Lapua cases delivered 1.125" 10-shot groups in the sweet spot. Damn close to half MOA. Seems nobody told Savage that a birch-stocked, unbedded production rifle was supposed to have mediocre accuracy. A friend from work fired that Savage and bought his own in 308 (a simlarly cheap model 10G in blue with birch stock, 22" bbl and accutrigger). He set his up the same as mine and I helped mount the optic. He bought some cheap surplus blasting ammo and got 3.5" at 200 yards = disappointment. I let him try some Federal GMM that I had left over. 1.5" at 200 yards off bags = happiness. I wonder how good the rifle could shoot if I did a full OCW Ladder workup on it.

Edited to correct spelling errors... damn I fatfingered it again.

Edited December 28, 2009 by big_kahuna

[twodownzero]

You can spray paint racing stripes on a 74 pinto but it won't make it a race car. A good barrel is very important but if the action is not true and square, if the barrel threads do not mate correctly, or the bolt lugs don't make appropriate contact, rebarreling an action may not show much improvement at all.

I don't really think this is entirely accurate.

As purists and machinists, people like to see perfection, but the reality is that there are very small gains to come at a very high expense to pay a gunsmith to true up every dimension of your action. It's a tube with a cork in one end and a hole in the other. Yes, there are gains to come from spending big dollars at the gunsmith. But I'm willing to bet they're nowhere near as great as spending even 1/4 of that money on components to load ammo and practice.

If you're going to shoot benchrest 5 shot groups from the same piece of brass, by all means, go to this extent. Otherwise, load up ammo and hit the range. it goes a long way.

I'm happy with my M70 and I wouldn't trade it for any Remington. I would, however, love to have a barrel that wasn't .060" longer than my magazine is to get to the lands.

[ajg308]

I don't care what people say about my Savage, I still think it is a great rifle. I shot the factory barrel out of my 10FP and put on a new douglas myself. That, my friends, is wwhy the 700 is the "choice" of all the smiths. They stand to lose a lot of money if people figure out they can do all of the work on their rifle with a vice and a wrench.

You guys keep your $3k rifles, I will still beat you with my $500 savage.

My vote is for the Savage. If you want to spend a little more money, the Savage competition action with removable mag is sweet!

[psyops]

Remmy!

[Singlestack]

I asked the same question a while back.

This is what I did and I am very happy with it:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...hl=range+report

[GrumpyOne]

Find yourself an older (not old!) Remington 700 Sendero. I have one that was used by a police sniper unit that has had a trigger job, glass bedded, fully floated, fluted barrel in 300 Win Mag. Try to find a 700 without the "J" lock on the bolt. I have owned both the Ruger M70 and the Savage 110. The M70 shot fine, but just seemed clunky to me, the fit and finish not the greatest after 1,000 rounds. The Savage I only owned for 7 days. While it may be a fine rifle, I was fitting a scope to it, I loaded a "live" round in it to see if it would clear the scope mount. As I was closing the bolt, the bastard discharged, blowing out my dining room window, and scaring the living sh*& out of me, my wife, and my mother in law. Turns out, there was a metal shaving inside the bolt, caught behind/in the firing pin and when the bolt locked, it discharged the round. Traded it an hour later. The other dislike I have about the Savage is you must put the safety into the fire position to unload the weapon. The Winchester has a 3 position saftey so that you can unload without putting it in the fire position. The Remington can be unloaded while in the safe position. I forget with the Ruger.... REMINGTON My .02 worth.

[1911vm]

Ok I guess I need to put a budget in to play. I am a carpenter so the funds are limited in this economy. I would like to stay under 2k hopefully including optics of some sort even if they are just temporary until I could get something good. I hope this will help with recommendations. Thanks

[Rob01]

Look around here and see what you can find

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthread...d=15&page=1

Lots of good used deals on barely fired rifles. Don't be afraid to buy used.

Oh forgot to mention, my $3k match rifle has never been beat by a Savage

Edited December 28, 2009 by Rob01

[1911vm]

Well I found this company but way out of my price range Accuracy international. http://www.accuracyinternationalsrt.com/

But something to save for Wow.

[GrumpyOne]

I bought my 700 on GunBroker. Try looking there.

Here's a link I just brought up, tons of good ones on there.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchRes...rds=700+sendero

[smokshwn]

There is more nonsense over on those "sniper" forums than any place on the web. It is full of what legitimate folks call "Gear Queers". If you found any truth there it would be coincedience. Getting a salvage (IMO) is like deliberately getting a ruger P89 for USPSA. Now I realize those salvages have been propped up like dems regarding Obama's health care plan but you get what you pay for. I'd be impressed to know anyone who has shot thousands with either of the previous mentioned firearms w\o issue.

Here is a list of "Gear Queers" who routinely post on Snipershide. BTW they also collectively build, demonstrate, teach, and win at many of the tactical precision rifle competitions around the country.

George Gardner screen name of A10XRIFLE of Gnat's Ass Precision http://www.gaprecision.net

Jered Joplin screen name JJoplin of American Precision Arms http://www.americanprecisionarms.com/default.aspx

Preston Pritchard of Surgeon Rifles http://www.surgeonrifles.com/homepage/

Randy Cain screen name HateCA of RD Precision http://www.rdprecision.net/

Terry Cross screen name Terry Cross of KMW Long Range Solutions http://www.kmwlrs.com/ make sure you check out the experience counts tab

Frank Gali screen name Lowlight owner of Snipershide and instructor at Rifles Only

Jacob Bynum screen name Rifles Only owner of Rifle's Only http://www.riflesonly.com

Lindy Sisk screen name Lindy frequent instructor at Rifles only

Rob Ormond screen name Rob01 member of Team Blaster and posted a link above

I am not nearly as versed in precision rifles as most on SH but the above names were spit out of my head relatively quickly based on the frequency that they post accurate sensible information.

As with many forums there are people who jump up and down and scream and shout and make silly statements that reflect absolute extremes. Generally it is very easy to distinguish those folks, and you can easily avoid their advice. However, don't be afraid to read alot and gather the opinions from those posters above or those who make relative statements.

Opps, I almost forgot, if you are still considering a Savage, Monte Milanuk is an excellent resource and shoots for team savage. He posts on this board under the screen name milanuk. Savage post http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...p;#entry1087906

Good luck with your pursuit. Craig

Edited December 28, 2009 by smokshwn

[jobob]

Damn you guys! Damn you!

I was quite happy with my ARs and hunting bolt guns. Then I opened this thread and find I'm starting to think about rifles that shoot 1/4" groups!

Arrrgh!

[STIGUY]

For what it's worth, the military (until they are replaced with semis) used Rem. actions in their sniper rifles with all the crap done as discussed above.......

[Rob01]

1911, where in CT are you?

[Boats]

High Power Silhouette. 200 to 500 meters club state and national matches 90% of the rifles are Remington 700's. In the unaltered hunter rifle class they are the only rifle you see. Most Club level Silhouette shooters go through a couple thousand rounds a year you never see a 700 choke.

I used to use a custom outfit on a 700 action in the Silhouette rifle class. Now only shoot the Hunter rifle and my current box stock 700 in 7 mm 08 is nearly as good as the 5 times more expensive outfit I used to use. Match scores no difference at all. If you want to spend more money put it into the scope first, stock 2nd, and barrel 3rd. Only tuning the Remingtons need is trigger. Only real weak spot is the ejector and if it goes sour you can flick the cartridges out with your finger and fix it with carb cleaner and air hose when you get home.

Custom barrels are great and everybody should have one, problem is hot calibers burn them out and lag time with gunsmiths and re-barrelling keeps your rifle out of service too long, not to mention the cost. Most serious competitors with custom rigs have at least two guns one to shoot and one waiting for a big name barrel. With the factory Remington you can shoot the barrel out sell and buy another quick and cheap.

1000 bucks spent carefully will get you a 700, trigger job, Leopold scope and change. Learn to shoot it and it will win matches.

Boats

Edited December 28, 2009 by Boats

[mlmiller1]

My brother has a 308 savage. Not sure of the model but it uses a removable magazine. He recently rebarreled it in .260 for a match we are attending this coming year. He bought the barrel from savage & they cut the chamber the way he spec'd it. His first day shooting groups got him a best group of 5 shots at 100yds of .313". This barrel has only had a few "break in" shots fired through it before these groups. It has not had any work done on it by a gunsmith. My brother did bed in the new barrel, though. I believe that is very acceptable accuracy in anyone's book. He thinks he may can get a little better with some tweaking on his loads. Maybe savage are hit & miss-I don't know. Maybe folks look down on them because they cost less, who cares? A group of .313" is plenty good accuracy.

MLM

[Graham Smith]

I started looking at this same thing a while back and decided that since I did not expect to be shooting anything past 600yds, and mostly 300 and under, an AR-15 would give me the most flexibility.

That said, my initial search was based on information from someone reasonably versed and he suggested that it is fairly easy to find a good Remington 700 to use as a starting place until you get deeper into it. Add on a Leupold VX-3 3.5-10x scope and some accessories and you should have a pretty good package for under $1200.

[ShooterSteve]

STI GUY, I have been out of the military for 20 years, but when I was in, the military used the cheapest bid they could get to purchase items without regard to quality. We had total crap for cold weather gear, knives etc. When something says official military issue, I usually run from it. I'm not saying anything bad about the 700 because I have a nice one in .25-06. Have a lot of work done to it and it shoots about a half inch. Great gun, but it should shoot with what I have in it. A couple years ago there was a program where you could donate scopes to Marine snipers that were in the Gulf. Why were we haveing to donate?-because the Marine system wouldn't let them purchase them! Anyway, if you look at elite units, they had NO issued stuff, all their stuff was ordered from the civillian market, because the issued stuff was just low bidder crap. All I'm saying is because something says official military issue-that doesn't make it good. I will also say that I think it is sad because our guys (and girls) deserve the best they can get, especially when going into a bad situation. I truly hope things have gotten better since I've gotten out, but military issue means absolutely total avoidance to me.