Lead bullets and smoke

[Mo Zee]

I have changed over from CMJ to Lead heads due to cost. I found that there is quite a bit of smoke from the wax and heard that crimping a bit more will reduce the amount of smoke. Has anyone played around with this and/or have any other suggestions?

[MarkCO]

Have your doc run a blood lead level test and make sure you get it done every year.

[Sarge]

The most I have heard in regards to smoke reduction is to shoot moly coated lead if possible and/or use the right powders. But even then you will get a fair amount of smoke compared to jacketed bullets. I run Moly's and Solo1000 which is supposed to be a decent mix and I THINK they smoke alot. Just search the subject here and see what all has been said about how to reduce the problem. Smoke is just part of the deal when shooting lead.

[Chills1994]

cast boolit smoke caused by waxey like lube = old wive's tale

[DWFAN]

Im shooting Lead 9mm with Solo, 3.0 grains smokes some, 3.2gr smokes less. Shooting outdoors with breeze that isnt in your face you will notice even less. (147gr LFP at 1.135oal )

I shoot lead in .45 also, clays and Solo both seem to smoke less than the 9mm, but I need to pay more attention to really compare.

[bucketobolts]

I loaded some Magnus hardcast with Unique last week. My buddy asked where I got the black powder Glock

[calishootr]

Lead bullets are gonna smoke regardless, how much they smoke is up to a combination of a lot ofthings...cooler powders(my personal preference is WST) dont burn off as much of the bullets base, the lead itself, shoot a really soft bullet above say 700 fps your not only gonna get smoke but you will get leading like crazy. so a really hard bullet combo'd w/ cooler powders will not cure the problem, but make it less noticeable

crimping harder wont get the powder to burn more in the case/barrel, and in some cases it will cause more problems especially for cases that headspace on the casemouth

[CocoBolo]

Hey you kidding me, even my open gun smokes with Jacketed JHP's no exposed lead or lube.

http://www.sashooter.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=582 click on download movie.

+1 on WST I use it with my Precison Moly bullets in Limited. I say let her smoke, it has never been a problem. If you really want a cloud use TiteGroup.

Biggest source of lead is the tumbler don't eat the corn, a media seperator is good don't handle the corn.

Check out BayouBullets.net gator snot don't smoke, like moly. I bought some just have not had a chance to test them. Price seems good as well. They feel very slick on the outside and my friend says he dropped his load .3 gr and got same velocity as with a moly bullet.

[Mo Zee]

I agree that lead will smoke regardless, and I am used to shooting lead as I have done it in dribs and drabs before. However for some reason the batch I am using now is smoking a lot more than what I am used to. I was hoping there was a quick fix for this but I see not.

Next question - These heads are sized and lubed already. Would I be able to moly coat them with the wax on them already? or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Thanks for the responses thus far.

[Chris Christian]

Moly coating cast bullets that are already lubed is not going to be very effective. The lube will inhibit the moly sticking. A wasted effort.

A previous poster noted that "cast boolit smoke caused by waxey like lube = old wives tale".

In my 40 years of reloading experience I find that remark to be inaccurate. Cast bullets require lube. That lube does burn and smoke. Some lube formulas smoke less than others. Some powders contribute to creating smoke with cast bullet lubes.

For the poster who is wondering why his current batch of bullets seems to smoke more than past batches - check to see what lube is being used on them. Casters often change lube due to cost or availability.... one reason why I don't purchase cast bullets. They are not always consistent.

I shoot a lot of .38 Spl revolver and .45 ACP using lead bullets and Win 231 or Hodgdon HP-38 powder. The bullets are swaged (Hornady or Speer) with a hard, dry lube. I load them to velocities of 740 to 840 fps. I don't have a smoke issue with that bullet/powder combo. Swaged bullets don't use the same lube as cast bullets, and while lead can... by itself... smoke... if a very hot & fast burning powder is used, these powders don't create noticable smoke. When used with cast lead bullets they will with some lube formulas. The lube on cast bullets does burn and cause smoke.

Chris Christian

[CocoBolo]

Mo Zee - I think your stuck with the wax. If the smokes just too much for you sell them. I have bought bullets because I had a discount cert won at a match and then found they didn't work in my gun. Bullets will sell fast with just a small discount, then take the money and buy something that will work for you.

This video of Brent a limited shooter on our team shooting N320 and cast lead bullets. This is a normal amount of smoke. http://www.sashooter.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=579

Edited December 21, 2009 by CocoBolo

[Mo Zee]

Thanks guys - much appreciated.

[Chills1994]

loaded up some cast lead boolits sans any lube, over a powder like TG or Clays.

That is exactly what I did.

And there was still plenty of smoke.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Flexmoney

[benos]

Moly coating cast bullets that are already lubed is not going to be very effective. The lube will inhibit the moly sticking. A wasted effort.

A previous poster noted that "cast boolit smoke caused by waxey like lube = old wives tale".

In my 40 years of reloading experience I find that remark to be inaccurate. Cast bullets require lube. That lube does burn and smoke. Some lube formulas smoke less than others. Some powders contribute to creating smoke with cast bullet lubes.

For the poster who is wondering why his current batch of bullets seems to smoke more than past batches - check to see what lube is being used on them. Casters often change lube due to cost or availability.... one reason why I don't purchase cast bullets. They are not always consistent.

I shoot a lot of .38 Spl revolver and .45 ACP using lead bullets and Win 231 or Hodgdon HP-38 powder. The bullets are swaged (Hornady or Speer) with a hard, dry lube. I load them to velocities of 740 to 840 fps. I don't have a smoke issue with that bullet/powder combo. Swaged bullets don't use the same lube as cast bullets, and while lead can... by itself... smoke... if a very hot & fast burning powder is used, these powders don't create noticable smoke. When used with cast lead bullets they will with some lube formulas. The lube on cast bullets does burn and cause smoke.

Chris Christian

+1.

be

[GForceLizard]

The video at Bayou Bullets gives a great example, compared to WWB, of how much smoke to expect.

[Harmon]

ive seen more smoke from FMJ loads than some lead loads.

22 rimfires dont smoke appreciably

i think the smoke comes from burning lead...swaged bullets normally are coated completely in lubricant and the powder has to burn through that coating to get through to the lead.

because of this, and the low hardness number, folks are less inclined to "nail" them with 40KPSI loads that make major in 40 smith and wesson. swaged bullets are normally OK for low power putt putt target loads.

those light target loads are less likely to create gas cutting that the higher pressure loads do.

if you recover a fired cast bullet, most (if not all) of the lube is still in the groove(s) which raises the question, Does that little wax removed by the rifling grooves cause the enormous cloud of smoke? i cant see it.

the facts are:

powders smoke when the burn

Primers smoke when they are fired.

oil residue smokes when the gun is shot

exposed lead causes smoke

waxy lubricants smoke.

add them all up and some loads may smoke more than others.

i would like to see a scientific approach to this question.

[Chris Christian]

Chill 1994,

I would politely suggest that you carefully re-read my original post before trying to parse it to fit your agenda.

I believe that I clearly stated that the lube used on cast lead bullets will burn. It does. Experienced shooters don't dispute that.

I believe that I also clearly stated that the use of some very fast burning powders will also cause smoke from lead burning, regadless of the lube used on the bullet. Those fast burning/hot powders would include Clays and Titegroup, but not Win 231 or HP-38.

I believe that I also clearly stated that the lube used on swaged bullets (at least the Speer and Hornady that I use) is different than that used on cast bullets. These can run at less than 950 fps... with powders other that the fastest burning, and produce loads that ... in my experience... are virtually smoke free. It's a function of the lube on the bullets and the powders used to propell them. There is a pleasant middle ground here, and once found, lead bullets can be used at normal PF velocities without the smoke.

If you wish to run un-lubed lead bullets in your guns with Clays ot Titegroup, by all means go ahead. It's a free country. In the unlikely event that I find you on one of the squads that I RO/SO, I'll just wear a painters mask.

.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Flexmoney

[Harmon]

having fired nearly a quarter of a million rounds of cast bullets in everything from 380, 9mm, 40, 357/38 7mm tcu, .308 rifle, 41, 44 mag, 45 auto and 4570...

I don't know what is experienced but i think i would seem to fit the definition..

most of my experience has been with higher pressure calibers...with the exception to the 45 auto.

I am not sure that the smoke actually comes from the lube (at least all of it anyway...)

I have tested different powders, bullets and lubricants to come to the following conclusions:

flat base bullets smoke less than bevel based bullets.

Lee Liquid Alox smokes less than hard commercial lubricant.

the above mentioned alox applied to commercial cast bullets REDUCES the smoke...

Gas Checks almost eliminate smoke. very little smoke from my 44 mag TC contender shooting 330 Grain hand cast gas checked bullets. That was a max load with Win 296 powder for 1350 fps.

9mm seems to be the most peculiar about cast bullets (short light bullets, fast twist, fast powder and 35Kpsi make problems)

some powders smoke less than others...even with jacketed bullets.

commercial bullets are cast sometimes too hard for some loads to "bump" them up to fill the rifling and seal the bore, thus getting gas cutting, throat leading and increased smoke.

and here i stand waiting on the ATF to get me my paperwork for an 06 FFL for a bullet business..cast bullets to be exact.

I know shooters believe the hard wax lube is to blame for the smoke, I don't believe that. It is my belief that the smoke originates from exposed lead bases being burned by the high flame temperature fast burning powders coupled with the bevel based bullets funneling the hot gases in between the bullet and the bore specifically in the throat causing gas cutting and ultimately exposing the hard lube to the propellant gasses thus contributing to the smoke.

Countless hours of experimenting and testing leaves me here: a coated bullet strikingly similar to several others on the market but in my testing. show less signs of leading and smoke in my guns.

enjoy the following video.

[Harmon]

[twodownzero]

Am I the only one who doesn't care if my loads smoke?

[Flexmoney]

Note:

I removed a big steaming pile of posts from this thread that were back and forth bickering between two members.

- Admin.

[NuJudge]

Higher sustained pressures generally gives me less smoke, even with a lubricant known for a lot of smoke (eg 50% Beeswax/50% Alox 2138F). An example is lubricated 158gr grooved Lead bullets in the the .357 Magnum using moderately hot loads of Hercules 2400.

If I use the same lubricant in a 9mm, using Bullseye powder, I get lots of smoke. I get even more when I shoot Bullseye with the same lube in the .45 acp.

I'm with the poster above who doesn not really care about smoke, mostly because I almost always shoot outside.

CDD

[LPatterson]

Am I the only one who doesn't care if my loads smoke?

After ROing about 400 shooters in a week I know you are not but after shooting under a table and through a barrel two matches in a row, I want the least smoke that I can get.

[twodownzero]

Am I the only one who doesn't care if my loads smoke?

After ROing about 400 shooters in a week I know you are not but after shooting under a table and through a barrel two matches in a row, I want the least smoke that I can get.

The only point I'm trying to make by presenting that question is very seldom do I even notice the smoke. I'm staring at the sights and it's awfully rare that the smoke obscures them. I try to keep my gun out of barrels and I prefer to shoot outside if possible, and the smoke doesn't bother me too much.

[RevolverJockey]

Not sure if this thread is still on track, but I have had good results using rifle lube in pistol (rooster red zambini) and WST powder along with my own cast stuff.. unless it is really cold, and I am shooting in a tight space into the rising sun, with steam coming up off the ground. I can never remember "smoke" bothering me..

Lee