Two wrongs make a right?

[DoubleDelta]

So the first squad, first stage, first shooter I RO is our club's M Open shooter. The timer I am used to using has you press and hold the button and release for the beep. Our club's timer beeps when you press the button. I say "stand-by" and a half second later the beep. Shooter draws and plants one less than 5 feet-at best-and continues the stage. I know I messed up, but on the other hand he AD'd-and not for the first time this year. Granted the beep being early could have startled him. After he finished the shooter chastised me for starting him early and our second-best shooter said he should have just not drawn. I said the round hit outside of ten feet. I appologize and ask if the shooter wants a re-shoot. He declines.

After the match at the bar my clipboard-driver(an experienced shooter in our club) said it was four and a half feet if it was an inch(which I agree with), but I made the right call that would not stir up a crap storm in the club.

I guess the question I am asking is how bad did I F--- up and how would you have handled it?

[jar]

I made the same insta-beep mistake at a recent IDPA match. I immediately yelled stop and the shooter didn't do anything. I gave him a minute to relax and re-set and then started him properly.

Once he NDs into the ground, I'm yelling stop and then giving ULASC and a DQ. The safety rules are there for a reason, and I'm not going to excuse a violation just because enforcing them would be hard. I think the crap storm if you left him get away with it and the next time someone got hurt would be FAR worse.

[Steve J]

The safety rules are there for a reason, and I'm not going to excuse a violation just because enforcing them would be hard.

I agree with jar. People have trouble issuing DQs because they view them as punitive, when they're really an educational tool to make people wake up and take notice.

[mactiger]

I made the same insta-beep mistake at a recent IDPA match. I immediately yelled stop and the shooter didn't do anything. I gave him a minute to relax and re-set and then started him properly.

Once he NDs into the ground, I'm yelling stop and then giving ULASC and a DQ. The safety rules are there for a reason, and I'm not going to excuse a violation just because enforcing them would be hard. I think the crap storm if you left him get away with it and the next time someone got hurt would be FAR worse.

This is exactly the right response.

Troy

[smokshwn]

I would have recognized that the SHOOTER DQ'D HIMSELF regardless if the beep came at a convenient time for him or not.

There is no realm of reality that says you were responsible for the DQ. If the shooter feels you shorted him on the start he can easily not draw.

Edited November 23, 2009 by smokshwn

[boz1911]

After he finished the shooter chastised me for starting him early and our second-best shooter said he should have just not drawn.

Sounds like an experienced shooter shifting blame on the situation. Irregardless of the quick beep, he should have stopped himself and not waited for you to do so. DQ

[Joe4d]

The rule is pretty clear 10.4.2, you also made reference to the rule in your post, so I assume you were aware of the rule, But you seemed to be so intimidated by a better shooter that you let him chastise you ? You then apologized to him and offered a reshoot ? This isnt good,

Step one know the rule, if you dont, issue a "Wait dont paste" command look in the rule book,

Step two quote the rule and issue the penalty or DQ

Step 3, Do not under any circumstances argue with a shooter, I dont care who he is, tell him what you saw and what rule was violated and he is DQ'd.

Skill at shooting has nothing to do RO ing

[open17]

DQ. Doesn't matter when the buzzer went off, the shooter AD'd.

Little thread drift---Is there such a thing as a early or late buzzer?

Here's the rule:

8.3.3 “Standby” – This command should be followed by the start signal within

1 to 4 seconds.

The word is "should", not "must".

As in "you should apply the safety while moving", "You should repaint steel between shooters at a Level I match"

etc. etc.------It's a good idea but not required.

[LPatterson]

Absolutely should have been a DQ. An RO can not let the skill level of the shooter determine their decisions. I'm saying that after working the Handgun Nationals and making some mistakes myself, I even got run over. RO's make mistakes but the shooter controls the gun and gun handling mistakes cause DQ's not what an RO does.

[spanky]

Early beep is no excuse for an ND in my opinion.

[Chills1994]

This is what I do...if I get "short beeped".

I just stand there like I didn't hear anything.

And I'm just a B class Limited/Production shooter.

And before people pile on me, this was a recommendation given to us at a Level I RO class by the instructor, because someone did ask that question: "What do you do if an RO short beeps ya?"

As a shooter, I have to ASSume that "short beeping" somebody is something done intentionally just to screw with someone's mental game. At the least, it is rude, and shows that the guy acting like the RO doesn't know how to RO.... just like screwing up the RO commands. It is NOT "Load and make ready" it is just "Make ready". There is no "slide forward..."

If the short beeping continues with that RO after I have gone out of my to say something to him, then I just get one of my buddies in the same squad to RO me at the next stage.

Anywhoo...getting back more on topic... the sportsmanlike thing to have done is the M level shooter should have just packed up his gun. If he was really nice, he would have still hung out with the squad and helped out with the pasting, the resetting and painting of steel, the scorekeeping, and possibly RO'ing the rest of the day...after he DQ'ed himself.

[Flexmoney]

So the first squad, first stage, first shooter I RO is our club's M Open shooter. The timer I am used to using has you press and hold the button and release for the beep. Our club's timer beeps when you press the button. I say "stand-by" and a half second later the beep. Shooter draws and plants one less than 5 feet-at best- {STOP} and continues the stage. I know I messed up, but on the other hand he AD'd-and not for the first time this year. Granted the beep being early could have startled him. After he finished the shooter chastised me for starting him early and our second-best shooter said he should have just not drawn. I said the round hit outside of ten feet. {???} I appologize and ask if the shooter wants a re-shoot. He declines.

After the match at the bar my clipboard-driver(an experienced shooter in our club) said it was four and a half feet if it was an inch(which I agree with), but I made the right call that would not stir up a crap storm in the club.

I guess the question I am asking is how bad did I F--- up and how would you have handled it?

The shooter...who had committed an unsafe act before...was allowed to continue with unsafe actions.

I don't mean to beat you up on this. But, it is vital to really send home the message. The RO's first priority is the safety rules.

The "clip-board driver" could have called the DQ as well. He is serving as the 2nd Range Officer on the stage. He knew what happened (you both seem sure).

[Chills1994]

Yeah, I have been there before where I erroneously assumed that having an "M" after the shooter's name or having a Lifer member number, or a really low member number gave me the impression that the shooter knew what he was doing.

WRONG!

Don't be duped like I was.

Also, don't be bullied by the "GM" and/or "M" designation.... the RO designation out-ranks them all.

(slight thread drift: there are times when I wish I had a Blackberry or some other device where I could have a quickly searchable (.pdf) version of the rulebook on my person while I RO'ed )

[coldchar]

Never ever, try to make up a deficiency in your action with a subsequent action. It never works and you loose all credibility with the rest of the shooters.

You asked if the shooter was ready, after that the burden is on him. If someone did not start after I trigger the buzzer, under the "should" rule and does not react, I guess he could claim he did not hear it. If he reacts, so sorry. The time is running.

Jim Gross

[Gary Stevens]

If I for whatever reason I feel like I have given a shooter a short beep, which doesn't happen very often, I just stop them before they get started. I know I messed up, and I won't put the shooter at a disadvantage if I can help it.

That doesn't excuse his AD though in this case.

[coldchar]

If I for whatever reason I feel like I have given a shooter a short beep, which doesn't happen very often, I just stop them before they get started. I know I messed up, and I won't put the shooter at a disadvantage if I can help it.

That doesn't excuse his AD though in this case.

Spent my whole adult life baseball umpiring before I got tired of being beaten to death by baseballs. Shifted over to this. You can't be making up your own rules. What you just said, gave the shooter an advantage over another one who had to live with a short buzzer.

Jim G.

[kgunz11]

Have you attended the USPSA RO certification course? If not, do so. It will be an educational experience, for me it was very humbling also.

I'd also make a habit of testing the timer before running the first shooter of the day. This should be done BEFORE the make ready command.

Try not to beat yourself up too badly about it, but learn from it. The NROI would much rather have people that can learn from their experiences with little prior knowledge than the ones that already think they know everything. You're already a better RO just from bringing up this discussion. Grow from it.

[kgunz11]

If I for whatever reason I feel like I have given a shooter a short beep, which doesn't happen very often, I just stop them before they get started. I know I messed up, and I won't put the shooter at a disadvantage if I can help it.

That doesn't excuse his AD though in this case.

Spent my whole adult life baseball umpiring before I got tired of being beaten to death by baseballs. Shifted over to this. You can't be making up your own rules. What you just said, gave the shooter an advantage over another one who had to live with a short buzzer.

Jim G.

I've been short beeped before... just can't seem to make myself NOT react to the sound that requires my reaction, even when it's not right. The beep is suppose to be between 1-3 seconds from the "standby". If a shooter doesn't move but has signaled they are ready when asked, what do you do? Do you look at them and show them the timer or do you give them another "standby" if the beep came after 1 second? Different people will handle this differently. SingleStack, you're a "by the books kind of guy", what would you do? Would it matter if it was a semi new woman or an experienced male?

[Gary Stevens]

For the record, I don't make up my own rules. That being said, the rules say it should be between 1-4 seconds for a start signal. If I accidentaly hit the start button or for some other reason fall short of that time frame, I'll stop the shooter. If it is within the specified time frame I won't.

That is adhering to the rules, not making them up.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Gary Stevens

[BSeevers]

Giving a short beep is poor ROing and should be a reshoot.

Shooter AD is always shooter responsibility

[Singlestack]

I've been short beeped before... just can't seem to make myself NOT react to the sound that requires my reaction, even when it's not right. The beep is suppose to be between 1-3 seconds from the "standby". If a shooter doesn't move but has signaled they are ready when asked, what do you do? Do you look at them and show them the timer or do you give them another "standby" if the beep came after 1 second? Different people will handle this differently. SingleStack, you're a "by the books kind of guy", what would you do? Would it matter if it was a semi new woman or an experienced male?

I would re-start them per 8.3.4.

[Chills1994]

Having crossed into USPSA from IDPA, the one really eye opening difference is that in USPSA there is absolutely no benefit of the doubt given to the shooter. Nope the RO/SO doesn't have to actually look into the chamber of your pistola to make sure it is absolutely clear of ammo...that is the shooter's responsibility (hence, the part "IF clear, hammer down, holster"). You drop a gun or AD/ND, that's your, the shooter's, responsibility. The shooter bears 100% of the responsibility to control his/her gun 100% of the time. Just doing it 99% of the time could lead to somebody possibly getting hurt or killed.

[kgunz11]

Chills I disagree with you on it being all on the shooter. If you read the USPSA/NROI Range Officers Creed it implies that responsibility is also on the range officer. If you're not going to assume that responsibility, you need to pass the timer off to someone else.

As a USPSA Range Officer, I shall conduct all competitions with the safety of the competitors, spectators and fellow Range Officials first and foremost in my thoughts and actions.

I shall always be courteous while maintaining firm control over my range and areas of responsibility.

I will always strive to be totally fair and impartial in my judgments.

Safety shall always be my primary goal, with efficiency and speed of the competition as secondary factors.

It is a privilege and an honor to serve as a Range Officer and I shall act accordingly.

It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior.

I shall put aside personal prejudices and act as an impartial judge at all times.

I shall keep my opinions to myself and shall not be critical of any individual beyond the field of contest.

I will thoroughly familiarize myself with all current regulations, match rules and attendant subjects.

I will be firm and fair in all judgmental calls made during the course of a stage, and be prepared to state in a clear and concise manner my reasons for such calls to the particular competitor or any Range Official.

During the course of a stage, my attention shall be clearly focused on the particular competitor I am assigned to observe, and I shall not permit my attention to be misdirected or lax.

Prior to and during a stage, I shall never consume any alcoholic beverage or narcotic. I understand that if I violate this rule, I may be suspended or barred from serving as a Range Official in the future.

I shall confer only with my fellow Range Officers and Match Officials concerning the behavior of any competitor and any decisions to be rendered.

I shall exercise due consideration for the personal emotions of any competitor, and shall act in a manner so as not to embarrass or disturb the competitor any more than is absolutely necessary.

I shall strive to never give even the appearance of wrongdoing.

[Chills1994]

Creed...rules... whatever is written in black and white... still back in like 2006/2007, my initial impression of USPSA having come from IDPA is that it is the shooter's responsibility 100%, 100% of the time for his/her gun and any shots fired. The shooter doesn't have to wait for me to say , "Oh, Okay, yeah, your chamber looks clear, go ahead and slide forward, point it at the berm, now, okay, squeeze the trigger." That's why the USPSA range commands are as terse as they are: "IFFFFFF!!!???Clear, hammer down, holster."

If that gun goes BANG! after that command, that's the shooter's problem, not the RO's.

This is the big boy's sport. Sure, I don't mind helping out the new guys and essentially holding their hands through a CoF to get them safely through a stage. We all started somewhere. Why heck... I have been known to issue lots of reminders after I read the course description out loud..."Okay, if you are right handed, don't try to move right to left in this stage and do a reload at the same time. If you do, you stand a good chance of being DQ'ed and having to go home." Or "for all the new guys in the squad, on a stage such as this where you are facing uprange, you almost always want to turn into your strong hand, then, draw. If you turn into your weak hand, you again run the risk of breaking the 180 and getting DQ'ed."

Here it is almost the end of 2009, and it is still my impression that a competitor "owns" his pistola. That a competitor "owns" every shot/bullet that leaves his/her gun.

@Kgunz... I am reading and re-reading that creed several times over, and nowhere am I seeing that if a shooter AD's/ND's the RO is supposed to go home too.

[kgunz11]

Here it is almost the end of 2009, and it is still my impression that a competitor "owns" his pistola. That a competitor "owns" every shot/bullet that leaves his/her gun.

@Kgunz... I am reading and re-reading that creed several times over, and nowhere am I seeing that if a shooter AD's/ND's the RO is supposed to go home too.

If you don't feel somewhat responsible for the shooter and the spectators while you are the officiating range officer, then there is nothing I can do about that. Maybe the NROI should look into how they grant certification to RO's and make it a little more clear in the creed if that is in fact their stance. It a shared obligation with the RO, maybe not legally but ethically and morally, according to "As a USPSA Range Officer, I shall conduct all competitions with the safety of the competitors, spectators and fellow Range Officials first and foremost in my thoughts and actions." Or that is my interpretation anyway. I am not a certified USPSA RO even though I have completed the course and passed the test, so I do not run the timer and don't have to worry about a competitor accidentally sending a round into the gallery on my watch.