Classifier reshoot policy

[cripple]

Ive checked the rule book for the 'official' word on re-shooting a classifier at a local match and I have seen many different people have many different interpretations at different local matches. Is there an 'official rule' on re-shooting a classifier?

According to the classification system handbook:

It is understood that anyone can do poorly on a classifier stage for various reasons, and this is why the USPSA board of directors has allowed members to re-shoot a classifier stage for classification purposes. This

permission should not be construed to mean that members can shoot classifier stages repeatedly until they have a score they like. The integrity of the classification system is at stake.

But there doesn't seem to be any guidelines governing such things like how many times one can re-shoot or can a re-shoot occur with the same gun/caliber, etc.

Just curious as to how everyone else handles this.

[LT45]

This is a subject that has been on my mind since I heard that a group of guys were shooting a classifier over and over and over at a monthly outdoor match that I attended a couple of years ago. They kept shooting till they got the score they were looking for. The next month they all moved up in classifications. I discussed this with another CRO friend. We came to the conclusion that they were screwing them selves over by having a classification higher than their actual shooting abilities. I don't allow more than one re-shoot. The shooter must have had either a mechanical malfunction or a total mental melt-down. The first one shot counts as their match score and the second one gets sent in for classification. We also charge a few bucks for the re-shoot. It would be beneficial if there was a ruling regarding re-shoots from NROI. Clear guide lines for all of us to follow.

[GentlemanJim]

As a person that may shoot a 24% or an 85% on the exact same classifier during two consecutive runs

Reshooting after a meltdown would be kinda cool.

Jim

[Dan Sierpina]

As a person that may shoot a 24% or an 85% on the exact same classifier during two consecutive runs

Reshooting after a meltdown would be kinda cool.

Jim

I always felt a classifier is just another stage. If you blow it, you get one shot at it. You don't get multiple runs on the other stages just because you didn't like the score.

[JThompson]

I'm not worried about the guy that wants to up his classification. Who cares? He'll get his ass handed to him at matches anyway. The guys I don't like are the sandbaggers that are top of the field on all stages but the classifiers. You get some poor B shooter who shoots the match of his life only to lose out to a guy that should clearly be an A or even an M.

[CocoBolo]

If I RO you get a reshoot when the rules require one. Your equipment including your brain are all part of the competition with other shooters. Your reloading ability is on the line as well.

At a classifier match the match director will set policy on reshooting the stages and the appropriate fee, at our last one it was $5.00. I ran one shooter on the same stage 7 times till he made GM, and a couple others till they made M and B. Most were premature escalations.

Edited November 14, 2009 by CocoBolo

[boz1911]

As a person that may shoot a 24% or an 85% on the exact same classifier during two consecutive runs

Reshooting after a meltdown would be kinda cool.

Jim

I'm counting a 9 percenter in my initial SS classification A reshoot would have been appropriate.....

[Ron Ankeny]

We allow a re-shoot if the shooter requests a re-shoot for classification purposes and if the score is well below the shooter's known ability and something obvious and out of the ordinary caused the score to fall. For example, an open shooter forgets to turn on the dot, a shooter reloads to an empty magazine, the gun jams, etc. There are situations where re-shooting the classifier is the most appropriate and ethical course of action.

[el pres]

Huh ?? At all of our local clubs we shoot the classifiers once, malfunction or

no malfunction, just like a stage. At least we do on my squads ??

I can think of many times where a reshoot would have been welcomed ...

[chefcs5]

we allow you to re-shoo the entire COF for 10$ with diffrent gun or 5$ with same gun you may redo any 1 stage for 3$(including classifier)

we charge 15$ for the standard match wich is 5 stages plus 1 classifier. we generally only allow 1 reshoot weather it be the whole match orjust one stage. some times that changes like if a guy shoot production, then shoots open for his rehoot and has a gun malfunction he may reshoot the classifier again for 3$ only your first run with each gun is counted for the match so if you reshoot in a diffrent class that is counted

Edited November 16, 2009 by chefcs5

[ebg3]

As long as they don't slow the match down, let them reshoot. Of course, the first run will count for the match. The only person being hurt by multiple reshoots is the shooter. If they move up in class, they'll have to be competitive in that class to win. It all gets sorted out at a match.

[buddy_fuentes]

As a person that may shoot a 24% or an 85% on the exact same classifier during two consecutive runs

Reshooting after a meltdown would be kinda cool.

Jim

I always felt a classifier is just another stage. If you blow it, you get one shot at it. You don't get multiple runs on the other stages just because you didn't like the score.

I agree with Dan.

The guys that shoot a classifier over and over to move up are only hurting themselves. They aren't going to be able to preform at the higher level when not allowed to shoot stages over and over.

Buddy

[spanky]

I can see a reshoot for a malfunction or an obvious brain fart.

The fact that there are no specifications as to when and why lead me to belIeve that USPSA wanted to leave it up to the officials and/or the shooter.

[VegasOPM]

I'm much more concerned about sandbaggers than grandbaggers. If you want to be a "paper GM"- go ahead. The ones that bother me are the so called "C" level shooters that finish mid pack in "A" at major matches.

[bayoupirate]

Your first run on the classifier is counted in the match score for that day.

$3 will get you one reshoot, or another run with another class of gun.

In the case of shooting two classes, you must shoot the gun you are shooting for the match first.

That's how it's usually done here.

[Ron Ankeny]

Huh ??

Here is a case I have in mind. Limited Master class shooter (on the verge of GM) shoots a special in order to get an initial classification in L10 for an upcoming state shoot. First three classifiers are solid M and low GM runs. Last classifier sucks because of brain fart and equipment malfunction. Reshoot and go to the match as a Master (proven ability level) or don't allow a reshoot and go as an A class shooter. I suppose the ethical thing to do is to go as an A class shooter then move up to GM a month later?

[kgunz11]

I have re-shot 2 classifiers in my time shooting USPSA and I felt bad about doing it. I won a Level III match and a Level II match this year as a B Class Limited shooter. I thought it was time to move up into A and since I was borderline, I re-shot the last 2 classifiers I had. One was a 76% and the other an 83%. After those 2 I shot the classifier at the Gator Classic and it was an 80% classifier shot in a major match that I also won B Class Limited Division. When the update ran, I was officially moved into A Class, which is where I need to be at the moment. As my wife says, "it's a marathon, not a sprint".

ETA, on one of those 2 I re-shot, I had a gun issue and my trigger failed to reset after each shot. I made a quick trip to the safe area, added a little spring tension, and I was back in business. I re-shot the stage with a properly functioning gun. I have also never shot an M percentile classifier in Limited, so I'll hang out at A for a while.

Edited November 17, 2009 by kgunz11

[professor]

We've usually got a handful of shooters going through the entire monthly [5-stage including classifier] match with a 2nd gun. First gun = $15, 2nd & additional guns = $10 @. For local match, 1st gun is official, 2nd etc. gun is re-entry, etc.

If anyone wants to just reshoot the classifier, with whatever gun, it costs them $3, which is our mission fee to USPSA.

BTW, it would be rare to move up in classification based on score from one classifier stage. Since your average is based on 6 best of last 8 valid classifiers, any 'good' score only pushes up your average by 1/6th of the percentage that you bettered your previous worst of the 6 scores.

Example: You've got a 70% average as a B shooter, with 65, 67, 69, 71, 73, 75 averaged to get that 70. You'd have to shoot a 95% to knock out the 65% to add 5% to your average [30% differential / 6]. And the current valid score that got eliminated by your new score couldn't be one of those higher than 65%.

Not worth the extra $3 per attempt to move up prematurely, IMHO.

Edited November 18, 2009 by professor

[McGunner]

This has been on ongoing discussion in my club. I dont mind if someone wants to reshoot at the end of the match before tear down. But its my understanding that all of the classifiers shot, regardless of how many times, all of them be sent in. Not just the one the shooter wants to send in. I dont like the idea of someone wanting to shoot it till he gets the score he's looking for and only sends in the high one.

Just my .02

Matt

[Nik Habicht]

This has been on ongoing discussion in my club. I dont mind if someone wants to reshoot at the end of the match before tear down. But its my understanding that all of the classifiers shot, regardless of how many times, all of them be sent in. Not just the one the shooter wants to send in. I dont like the idea of someone wanting to shoot it till he gets the score he's looking for and only sends in the high one.

Just my .02

Matt

Matt,

it doesn't matter (for classification) if all scores go in or only the high goes in......

USPSA dismisses all but the high one in any event.....

it does matter in terms of activity fees.....

[sfpmb]

When the update ran, I was officially moved into A Class, which is where I need to be at the moment. As my wife says, "it's a marathon, not a sprint".

I have also never shot an M percentile classifier in Limited, so I'll hang out at A for a while.

I am just starting to do better at classifiers, but I have progressed better at field courses. As a B class shooter (there is a big growth gap in I got comments that I should go up. But I never got the classifiers for it, I mean I was trying.

At Area 1, 2009, I was 77% to the division winner (who is a national champion), I was moved quite happily into A class, and frankly felt like I deserved it. Five months later, at Area 2, I shot 81% to the division winner (again a national champion). I can clearly say to anyone, I am a solid A class shooter trying to work toward M. I could with reshoots, have easily made M class runs on classifiers, I am sure of it. But is that the point. I have always looked at the score sheets and wondered about the M guy buried behind a bunch of B's and A's and thought, did that guy have a bad match or is he just not supposed to be that class. Even if you cannot, through classifiers go up, you won't stay ther long if you do bigger matches so for me it is relative.

I do like the comment about the one reshoot. I have never reshot a classifier at a match. But for the true mess up (you know it was below %50) I think one would be good. But the spirit of this does not apply when you are a %70'er and you shoot a 65%. Thats no good and you just need to own up to the fact that you did not put a decent run together and accept it.

Note - of the 13 classifiers I shot between the two area matches, none were M class and only 1 was A class, all the others were B or lower.

[Flyin40]

Ive checked the rule book for the 'official' word on re-shooting a classifier at a local match and I have seen many different people have many different interpretations at different local matches. Is there an 'official rule' on re-shooting a classifier?

According to the classification system handbook:

It is understood that anyone can do poorly on a classifier stage for various reasons, and this is why the USPSA board of directors has allowed members to re-shoot a classifier stage for classification purposes. This

permission should not be construed to mean that members can shoot classifier stages repeatedly until they have a score they like. The integrity of the classification system is at stake.

But there doesn't seem to be any guidelines governing such things like how many times one can re-shoot or can a re-shoot occur with the same gun/caliber, etc.

Just curious as to how everyone else handles this.

Here is another thing that alot of people don't think about. Getting moved up into a class that lets you get your butt handed to you or at the very most you finish at the bottom of you class is a motivational tool some people use. They get classified to the class that they believe they should be in. Once there they work very hard to become a good shooter in that class. Once they are at the top of that class they make a move to the next class then repeat. If they get classified to A class then that means they shot A class classifiers and have it in them to be A class. Now they must work on the skills that allow them to perform at a consistent A class level.

I don't care how many times a person reshoots a stage as long as is after the match, not during. Matches can take long enough without people reshooting classifiers. If someone gets bumped up a couple classes to far it will show in the results. So if your a C class shooter and you beat an A class shooter who shot classifiers to get moved up that A class shooter will hear about it

Flyin

[Corey]

i can maybe see the need for a reshoot for classificatio purposes for a serious malfunction of some kind to get an "accurate" score, but i think its stupid to keep trying over and over to move up a class. it'll happen when it happens when your good enough to shoot the score the first time. I've only shot one classifier so far in my very short career and it wasnt very good, but I dont think a reshoot woulda helped me much. I did what i could do at the time. ive been practice hard since then so hopefully itll reflect on the next one end of this month...

[Flatland Shooter]

Some of our local clubs will allow a classifier reshoot if something happens that does not accurately reflect the shooter's ability.

In my case, I've only requested a reshoot if its a hardware malfunction and not a brain malfunction.

As for those that say its OK to allow multiple reshoots until the competitor finally has one they are happy with since it does not hurt anything, they are wrong. Whenever someone get bumped up an undeserved class it skews the database. Sure a handful of bad data don't kill the database, but if enough shooters are allowed to do this, in time the database will no longer be representative of the actual skills of our shooting community.

And the same goes for the sandbaggers. (But I guess if you throw in an amount of overachievers with an equal amount of sandbaggers, the results cancel each other out.)

Bill

Edited February 8, 2010 by Flatland Shooter

[Team Amish 1]

I think it's an honour system that goes both ways.

Everyone SHOULD shoot a classifier like just another stage and see where they end up, regardless of great or bad performance that day.

Reshoots should be granted like on a "normal" stage, nothing else. If your equipment fails, it's part of your match preparation or bad luck - like on a real stage. Then again, like someone said before, grandbaggers are not the problem, sandbaggers are. I wish our sport could get a better handle on sandbaggers who go to bigger matches and place 2 classes high.

edited because there needs to be an "a" in classifier

Edited February 9, 2010 by Team Amish 1