POLL: Should Non-Magnified Rifle Optics Be Allowed In Tac Iron/Limited

[bigbrowndog]

Say it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gordon and I can agree on something. (TO posters don't want it)

Kurt has hit the head on the nail, or something like that????? Given to current lot of lazy inept people that want to go out and shoot guns like they do in the movies, be they LE or military or Civvie, a RD is easier to pick up and understand faster however your statement regarding a RD being better on ALL counts than irons is...................................well WRONG. in low light the polarization coating on a RD sucks and the dot is too big, and, all other kinds of stuff.

Other peoples experiences are going to contradict your own. So Never make absolute statements, NEVER EVER!!!!

trapr

[kurtm]

Kelly, is there anything you haven't broke?? Seems to me you also shot apart an M-14, something I have yet to do even after 4 new barrels on one reciever, Quit going to the Gym and stop chugging AMP...things will last longer. KurtM

[kellyn]

Kelly, is there anything you haven't broke?? KurtM

Nope.

[P.E. Kelley]

I absolutely feel the Limited (Iron sighted) division ought to include any ONE POWER optical device.

Red dots, powered or not, cross-haired or bullet drop compensating reticules, I care not.

Provided the device offers no magnification beyond 1X (rules may have to include a fudge factor for manufacture variance of .25x)

Yes, some competitors will be drawn from Tac-Optic but I bet over a year’s time more may be “cultivated” from the masses of AR owners with Tacticool 1x optics.

This is good for all of us in the Multigun community.

Patrick (running Iron's for DECADES) Kelley

[Jim Norman]

When I started out, I shot a heavy barreled AR, 20" no comp A2 with a California CompWorks (if memory serves) mount for an Aimpoint dot. This mount placed the dot in a co-witness position. Over the sights using the dot was fast, and I could use the dot on top of the post in poor light out to 200 plus.

All my new guns have been flat tops and optics. I just may have to resurrect my old A2 and put that combo back together. Might be fun if it is allowed. Used to be if I remember correctly. I seem to remember that a dot, no magnification was ok in Limited and optics with magnification put you into open. Heck my JP with Irons and the original Tank Brake was ok in Limited at first, hen we had to switch tem over to a 1" comp or go to Open.

I won a plate match overall with that JP shooting Irons. (OK they are target sights, but still) I suppose if I could put together a sight and eyeglass combo that worked I would try it, at least at level ones to see how it runs.

Jim

[gunther]

just shoot open!

[ERIC]

Not another division!

Next we'll have a division for semi shotguns and scoped rifles in heavy metal. Oh wait, I already used that line in another thread.

[StealthyBlagga]

Not another division!

Same division - just more "inclusive"

Edited November 7, 2009 by StealthyBlagga

[whiskey1]

Finally got around to this thread. A few points I would like to make, please take them in the spirit they are offered.

1) Arguing with Kirk M about iron sights is like arguning with the Pope about Catholicism. You won't win.

2) No need to bring cops who don't compete into a competition discussion. It is like comparing people who drive wornout taxicabs for a living to NASCAR drivers. They both drive cars...Similarity ends there.

3) A match is not a gunfight. Use of dots/irons/thermal imaging devices/ laser target designators/ smartbombs/ GPS to direct military munitions may be interesting but is only peripherially related to their use in competition.

4) I know a little bit about #3 above because I have been to both. Competition is a lot more fun. Gunfights are only fun after they are over and your side won.

5) I voted yes to RDO in Limited. I prefer to shoot irons. I think it is more fun, but I have started shooting a scope in the big outlaw matches to have a better shot at high end prizes. Typically only shoot irons in a couple USPSA matches per year now since the prize tables aren't really a factor there. If RDO serve to increase the participation in limited to something comparable with that in TAC Optics I will switch back tomorrow.

6) I have been a LEO for 16 years. Trainer for 13 years. SWAT member for 9. Team commander for 3. Work in metro Atlanta county. Shot matches of several types off and on for years. Have had some success.

7) All of my opinions are probably wrong, but now I feel better. Thanks for your time.

[cksh8me]

If a MD/promoter wants to allow RD in Limited let them do it. After reading another thread on here about Outlaw matches it's pretty plain it's up to the MD/promoter.

Put it out there, and see if you build it will they come? If it works maybe others will follow. On the other hand if the match fills up does the MD/promoter care?

Lots of posts here about how to make the targets easier for IS shooters to see the targets, paint, banners, etc. Seems like more work for the staff and promoters. What is their incentive if they sell out already?

I don't shoot IS and what the MD does makes no difference to me just wondering is all.

Edited November 19, 2009 by cksh8me

[Charles Bond]

Is it not amazing this thread has 35 replies?

[mike_pinto]

I would be curious to see results of this poll only by "iron" shooters.

[RobMoore]

Instead of expanding the arena for 1x optics, I'd go the other way. Limit Tac Ops to 1x only, and put all magnified optics in open. Counter this by allowing 1x optics on the shotguns in Tac Ops.

Irons should be all Irons.

[steel1212]

I would be curious to see results of this poll only by "iron" shooters.

I don't even shoot Irons and I don't understand this at all. If you want to shoot a RDS then do so...in Optics or Open. I do shoot with some very good Iron shooters and I'm just absolutely amazed every time Bryan, Shaun and the like hit what they hit at the ranges they hit them...I CAN"T EVEN SEE WHAT THEY ARE HITTING! Leave Irons to the guys that still have their vision and know how to roll it old school. If you can't shoot Irons because of vision or what ever thats fine, get a scope and jump in with the sharks. If your hiding in Irons and want a "advantage" well then MAN UP!

[Religious Shooter]

The whole point is to attract shooters to TI/Limited. The numbers have been dwindling these past couple of years.

Take a look at the USPSA Nationals a month or so ago. There were only two shooters who shot in Limited. Two.

In order for Limited division to be recognized they needed 10 shooters. They didn't have ten shooters... so there was no Limited Division at the MG Nationals. Those two Limited shooters were lumped into Tactical.

There was no Limited Division at the MG Nationals.

If you don't allow RDS shooters into TI/Limited, chances are you may start to not have TI/Limited division in the big matches because of the lack of participation.

So as a TI/Lim shooter would you rather be:

1) Moved into Tactical/TS and compete with the Tactical/TS shooters with their magnified optics or

2) Allow the 1X RDS users into the TI/Lim in order to (possibly) get that minimum number of shooters and have a Limited/TI (with RDS) division and potentially have a better prize table for Lim/TI?

[bigbrowndog]

actually I'd like to see the targets painted for every shooter, then maybe that will bring more shooters "back" to Irons.

But, Mr Moore I like your thinking, I see a trend developing here, really I do!!!!!!!!!

otherwise just kill it, its obvious the the desire to cultivate the division is not there

trapr

Edited November 23, 2009 by bigbrowndog

[StealthyBlagga]

Instead of expanding the arena for 1x optics, I'd go the other way. Limit Tac Ops to 1x only, and put all magnified optics in open. Counter this by allowing 1x optics on the shotguns in Tac Ops.

Irons should be all Irons.

I could actually support this, but I can hear the squeals from the Tac Scope guys already (I'm a former Tac Iron shooter, now I shoot in Tac Scope for the prize table).

[Religious Shooter]

Well there you go. Get rid of TI and Limited.

Resistence is futile. You will be assimilated.

[Religious Shooter]

... Open is next.

[Charles Bond]

Instead of expanding the arena for 1x optics, I'd go the other way. Limit Tac Ops to 1x only, and put all magnified optics in open. Counter this by allowing 1x optics on the shotguns in Tac Ops.

Irons should be all Irons.

I shoot magnified Tac Optics. It would not bother me at all to do so against the open shooters. But let us be real.

If there is not enough current interest in limited or iron sights for it to be recognized as a division, why should it be the duty of the non limited shooters to save it? Is it not like any other product offering? If I prefer to use White Lilly flour and so does most everyone else and the grocery sells 100 bags of that flour to 5 bags of Martha White flour, why is it my job or the job of any other customer who uses While Lilly to buy bags of Martha While just so the store will continue to carry it?

-----political sentence removed by moderator to preserve thread------

[Mike P]

Instead of expanding the arena for 1x optics, I'd go the other way. Limit Tac Ops to 1x only, and put all magnified optics in open. Counter this by allowing 1x optics on the shotguns in Tac Ops.

Irons should be all Irons.

I shoot magnified Tac Optics. It would not bother me at all to do so against the open shooters. But let us be real.

If there is not enough current interest in limited or iron sights for it to be recognized as a division, why should it be the duty of the non limited shooters to save it? Is it not like any other product offering? If I prefer to use White Lilly flour and so does most everyone else and the grocery sells 100 bags of that flour to 5 bags of Martha White flour, why is it my job or the job of any other customer who uses While Lilly to buy bags of Martha While just so the store will continue to carry it? Would that not be an Obamanation?

It wouldn't be the customers responsibility to support a product that they didn't use. However, it would be wise for the store to keep products available even for a small percentage of his customers.

Look at it like convincing the store manager to run a sale, they do it all the time and if the product is useful, it will create it own following, something that can many times expand the product line as customer experiences are input to the supplier.

Run a damn sale. Its not like there is something extra to lose.

[Charles Bond]

It wouldn't be the customers responsibility to support a product that they didn't use. However, it would be wise for the store to keep products available even for a small percentage of his customers.

Look at it like convincing the store manager to run a sale, they do it all the time and if the product is useful, it will create it own following, something that can many times expand the product line as customer experiences are input to the supplier.

Run a damn sale. Its not like there is something extra to lose.

So if the match costs $100 the MD should let iron sight shooters in for $80 even though the match will fill with those electing other divisions?

[Mike P]

It wouldn't be the customers responsibility to support a product that they didn't use. However, it would be wise for the store to keep products available even for a small percentage of his customers.

Look at it like convincing the store manager to run a sale, they do it all the time and if the product is useful, it will create it own following, something that can many times expand the product line as customer experiences are input to the supplier.

Run a damn sale. Its not like there is something extra to lose.

So if the match costs $100 the MD should let iron sight shooters in for $80 even though the match will fill with those electing other divisions?

Absolutely not. The incentive I'm talking about is being able to compete with the RDS without being at a disadvantage, percieved or actual. Some would consider the RDS an advantage, but apparently many of the TI shooters do not. My thinking is that whether or not its an advantage or disadvantage depends upon target presentation. Since that is off of the table so to speak, and there are a hell of a lot of folks with training/HD guns sitting in the safe with RDS and BUIS, it might mean more participation and being able to retain one of the core division/skillsets of multi-gun.

Carry on

[bigbrowndog]

Thanks Charles you just made this a political issue with that comment say goodbye to the topic!!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

-----political sentence removed by moderator to preserve thread-----

Edited November 23, 2009 by 00bullitt

[LPatterson]

Inattention to detail is devistating. The last time I thought about 3 gun there was Limited and Open with some discussion about a Tactical division. Now I am hearing Tactical Iron, Limited, TS (whatever that is) and Open. For my edification could someone explain where the concept of Tactical Iron came from. Let's not let the Army's use of sighting devices determine what we use in sport shooting. If the next war is back to the jungles walking through streams and enduring a foot of rain a day for weeks on end the red dots would be problematical. First thing is to drop the Tactical because what we are doing is not tactical. Create an iron sight division, a non magnified optical division, a magnified optical division and an Open anything goes division. The iron sight division could become the Production of pistol, the non-magnified optic the Limited 10 of pistol, the magnified optic the Limited of pistol and Open with as many optics as you can hang in it and a bipod. Further limit iron sights to 20 round magazines, optical mounted rifles to 30 round magazines and Open to SAW capacity. For 3 gun to continue to expand we have to stop fighting among ourself about one sighting system being the best for every occasion. If you held a match and every target was inside 25 yards then what sight system would win, now extend that same match to 100 yards or 300 yards. Different yardage targets are going to be won by different sighting systems.

United we stand, divided we fall. Seems to me I read about that in history and it could apply today or we may have to start shooting bolt action rifles.