mactiger Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I concur that the RO being the last one off the stage should be the goal but at some point in time someone will get missed and that is the RO's worst nightmare. This is amplified by the number of walls people can get behind and even when scoring from back to front and going to the back to check targets, people can mystically appear after you scan an area. Since the rulebook does not support anything other than authorized range commands other than selected warnings, yelling "going Hot" would be discouraged as confusing to some shooters.I don't see that any one answer will solve this problem other than better situational awareness and not overworking the RO. George would disagree on the going hot statement. I have never seen anyone look the slightest bit confused on using it and it acts as a heads up to all. Yeah, but have a foreign competitor or someone that uses "going hot" at their local club for "Make Ready" draw their gun when you say it, and it's a different story. "Going Hot"is not a good substitute for actually verifying that the range is clear of people prior to issuing the "Make Ready"command. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I concur that the RO being the last one off the stage should be the goal but at some point in time someone will get missed and that is the RO's worst nightmare. This is amplified by the number of walls people can get behind and even when scoring from back to front and going to the back to check targets, people can mystically appear after you scan an area. Since the rulebook does not support anything other than authorized range commands other than selected warnings, yelling "going Hot" would be discouraged as confusing to some shooters.I don't see that any one answer will solve this problem other than better situational awareness and not overworking the RO. George would disagree on the going hot statement. I have never seen anyone look the slightest bit confused on using it and it acts as a heads up to all. Yeah, but have a foreign competitor or someone that uses "going hot" at their local club for "Make Ready" draw their gun when you say it, and it's a different story. "Going Hot"is not a good substitute for actually verifying that the range is clear of people prior to issuing the "Make Ready"command. Troy Never said it was a substitute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I knew one of the senior guys would chime in that it could cause issues and it can, but I think it's still a good idea and I use it locally. I use it for many reasons, but the two biggest are if someone got missed and to warn everyone to get their eyes and ears on. If you are worried about a guy drawing the pistol when you give the command, just position yourself in front of him when you do so. If he pulls it and points it at you he deserves a ticket to DQ no matter what language he/she speaks. I would much rather hear that than a guy ask me if I understand the COF. Something about that bugs me.. I guess because I have to respond. Maybe I'm just contrary. JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterbenedetto Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Been there. I was behind a wall when I heard the Make Ready. My solution, jump up and down and yell real loud! ....and depending on who will be shooting, make like a brown target as quick as possible. MORE LIKE GRAB A TARGET AND MAKE SURE THE WHITE PART IS SHOWING TO COVER YOURSELF!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupie Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I knew one of the senior guys would chime in that it could cause issues and it can, but I think it's still a good idea and I use it locally. I use it for many reasons, but the two biggest are if someone got missed and to warn everyone to get their eyes and ears on. If you are worried about a guy drawing the pistol when you give the command, just position yourself in front of him when you do so. If he pulls it and points it at you he deserves a ticket to DQ no matter what language he/she speaks. I would much rather hear that than a guy ask me if I understand the COF. Something about that bugs me.. I guess because I have to respond. Maybe I'm just contrary. JT Im with you jim on the do you understand the course of fire? the next one that bugs me but not as bad is any questions? even though people have told me that I dont seem as friendly when I use the proper range comands. Which is ok with me if it avoids confusion. I also think that being "All buiseness" is important to keep distractions down for the shooter and the RO at the start of every stage. I always check down range and turn my head and check 180's right before I give the make ready command. It can be a challange for the RO to keep his head in the game all the time everytime, and not let the fun distract you from your responsibilities. Saying it that way makes it seem like all work and no play but I enjoy doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I've been the shooter in that situation multiple times. I just ignore the command and inform the RO. I always make sure I'm the last one on the stage when I'm the shooter because I don't want to be "that guy." It also pays for the shooter to check the stage - he/she is pulling the trigger after all. Everyone has got to have situational awareness to keep this from happening... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Been there. I was behind a wall when I heard the Make Ready. My solution, jump up and down and yell real loud! ....and depending on who will be shooting, make like a brown target as quick as possible. MORE LIKE GRAB A TARGET AND MAKE SURE THE WHITE PART IS SHOWING TO COVER YOURSELF!! Somebody would probably shoot you! I'd hit the deck, yell, and hope the stage design doesn't have too many shoot-throughs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I concur that the RO being the last one off the stage should be the goal but at some point in time someone will get missed and that is the RO's worst nightmare. This is amplified by the number of walls people can get behind and even when scoring from back to front and going to the back to check targets, people can mystically appear after you scan an area. Since the rulebook does not support anything other than authorized range commands other than selected warnings, yelling "going Hot" would be discouraged as confusing to some shooters.I don't see that any one answer will solve this problem other than better situational awareness and not overworking the RO. George would disagree on the going hot statement. I have never seen anyone look the slightest bit confused on using it and it acts as a heads up to all. Yeah, but have a foreign competitor or someone that uses "going hot" at their local club for "Make Ready" draw their gun when you say it, and it's a different story. "Going Hot"is not a good substitute for actually verifying that the range is clear of people prior to issuing the "Make Ready"command. Troy Make ready is the only command that allows the shooter to draw his gun and load it according to the rule book. Even if they are from a foreign country, they still have to comply with the rules. 'Range is going hot' is not Make Ready. I say it every shooter. My range commands don't start until I say make ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergie Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 The correct range commands start with "make ready" Many foreign shooters don't understand any English. They do know that the range commands start with "make ready"...so, if you say " range is hot" they don't know that from "make ready" since it is the first thing you said. They draw their gun thinking it's OK when it's not. This is why we don't use any other phrases such as " do you know and understand the course of fire" or "do you have any questions". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 The correct range commands start with "make ready"Many foreign shooters don't understand any English. They do know that the range commands start with "make ready"...so, if you say " range is hot" they don't know that from "make ready" since it is the first thing you said. They draw their gun thinking it's OK when it's not. This is why we don't use any other phrases such as " do you know and understand the course of fire" or "do you have any questions". I was a foreign shooter for about three years...... The official language of the game is English. If someone can't learn the range commands --- twenty-three words --- then perhaps they shouldn't be playing the game..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 I concur that the RO being the last one off the stage should be the goal but at some point in time someone will get missed and that is the RO's worst nightmare. This is amplified by the number of walls people can get behind and even when scoring from back to front and going to the back to check targets, people can mystically appear after you scan an area. Since the rulebook does not support anything other than authorized range commands other than selected warnings, yelling "going Hot" would be discouraged as confusing to some shooters.I don't see that any one answer will solve this problem other than better situational awareness and not overworking the RO. George would disagree on the going hot statement. I have never seen anyone look the slightest bit confused on using it and it acts as a heads up to all. Yeah, but have a foreign competitor or someone that uses "going hot" at their local club for "Make Ready" draw their gun when you say it, and it's a different story. "Going Hot"is not a good substitute for actually verifying that the range is clear of people prior to issuing the "Make Ready"command. Troy Make ready is the only command that allows the shooter to draw his gun and load it according to the rule book. Even if they are from a foreign country, they still have to comply with the rules. 'Range is going hot' is not Make Ready. I say it every shooter. My range commands don't start until I say make ready. Good. If you also verify that nobody is downrange prior to issuing your range commands, then you are doing it right. If you yell "Range is going hot" as a means of checking, then you are doing it wrong. If you've already checked and want to say something other than "Make Ready", feel free. That was my point, along with a bit of hard-earned advice about the possibility of someone less schooled in the range commands committing a safety infraction because he was confused and the RO said something other than the first range command. Say whatever you want prior to Make Ready; I personally don't say anything, but that's me. There's no rule against saying something other than "Make Ready". Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) I concur that the RO being the last one off the stage should be the goal but at some point in time someone will get missed and that is the RO's worst nightmare. This is amplified by the number of walls people can get behind and even when scoring from back to front and going to the back to check targets, people can mystically appear after you scan an area. Since the rulebook does not support anything other than authorized range commands other than selected warnings, yelling "going Hot" would be discouraged as confusing to some shooters.I don't see that any one answer will solve this problem other than better situational awareness and not overworking the RO. George would disagree on the going hot statement. I have never seen anyone look the slightest bit confused on using it and it acts as a heads up to all. Yeah, but have a foreign competitor or someone that uses "going hot" at their local club for "Make Ready" draw their gun when you say it, and it's a different story. "Going Hot"is not a good substitute for actually verifying that the range is clear of people prior to issuing the "Make Ready"command. Troy Make ready is the only command that allows the shooter to draw his gun and load it according to the rule book. Even if they are from a foreign country, they still have to comply with the rules. 'Range is going hot' is not Make Ready. I say it every shooter. My range commands don't start until I say make ready. Good. If you also verify that nobody is downrange prior to issuing your range commands, then you are doing it right. If you yell "Range is going hot" as a means of checking, then you are doing it wrong. If you've already checked and want to say something other than "Make Ready", feel free. That was my point, along with a bit of hard-earned advice about the possibility of someone less schooled in the range commands committing a safety infraction because he was confused and the RO said something other than the first range command. Say whatever you want prior to Make Ready; I personally don't say anything, but that's me. There's no rule against saying something other than "Make Ready". Troy Both sides of this one have valid points. One must also take into account some shooters are hard of hearing or are double plugged. In both cases a shooter could mistake the command. I saw it happen at a big match with a well known RO. If you are going to say anything other than make ready, make sure you are in front of the shooter or are watching closely so you can intervene should they try and draw. The last thing I want to do is send a shooter home because I chose to give a command outside the norm. JT Edited October 25, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL-SIG Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 While I believe the RO is responsible for safely supervising the course of fire, it's the shooter that's pulling the trigger and facing the possible consequences if the stage is not clear of people. I am not referring to the consequences of the rules of the game, but consequences of life. How would any of us feel if we accidently shot a fellow competitor (god forbid!)? While I agree the RO should make sure the stage is clear - the shooter should have comfort by checking the stage themselves and when the "make ready" command is given know 100% that they are about to shoot a safe stage clear of people (I always confirm myself, regardless of what the RO does). The RO can check, but I am the shooter and I will take responsibility for knowing what I am shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSteel Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 As many have found out in other circumstances, if you are the person pulling the trigger no matter what the circumstances, you alone are responsible for the outcome. Because this is a shooting sport I'm sure the lawyers we see it no different, wrong death or injury. Before making ready it is in the shooters best interest (and personal responsibilty) to know if the range is "really clear". I'm sure this could be disputed many times over but in reality I feel it is what it is. (Yes, my opinion) Language barrier should not be a factor!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 (edited) Agreed. Has not happened to me yet - but I have nightmares about "that day." Transparent/mesh walls are of some benefit here. RE: pre-COF chatter: less is more. No matter how hard you try, sooner or later if you RO enough, this is going to happen. Yup, and the response when the someone downrange hears "Make Ready" will be pretty quick and very loud. It can happen on a simple stage as well as one with tons of barricades / walls, etc. Edited October 26, 2009 by Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I am in the process of replacing all of our fabric walls with mesh fabric walls, much safer!! It kind of screws up some COF designs but safer is safer no matter who is MD. I too only use the "Make Ready" command, so that the shooter soes not get confused with "banter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I am glad to see the folks in favor of yelling out "Going Hot" before starting the course of fire. In a recent RO Class, there was some discussion about using commands that were not proper range commands, and we were advised to only use the proper range commands. Some folks don't like you saying things that aren't in the rule book. I am for anything that promotes the safety of the sport. A little "eyes and ears" reminder is nothing to get all bent out of shape about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I don't have a problem with an RO calling, "Going Hot!" or issuing the reminder, "Eyes and Ears" before they say "Make Ready". The CoF hasn't actually started at that point so it's just an 'informational alert'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I don't do "Going Hot!". Tried using it consistently once at a club match. Too many experienced competitors took it for a call to make ready. Can't explain why they did it, but it sure is not safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I seldom use "Going Hot", for the same reasons. It's not a range command, and it confuses people. Anytime that I am saying anything other than the range commands, I want to in front of the shooter and facing him/her. That seems to negate any confusion. Then, if I want to use something other than a range command (usually to get the attention of the gallery), I feel OK in doing so. When I give the "Make Ready", I try to do so clearly and loudly. Everybody in the shooting bay ought to be able to hear it and know what is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I knew one of the senior guys would chime in that it could cause issues and it can, but I think it's still a good idea and I use it locally. I use it for many reasons, but the two biggest are if someone got missed and to warn everyone to get their eyes and ears on. If you are worried about a guy drawing the pistol when you give the command, just position yourself in front of him when you do so. If he pulls it and points it at you he deserves a ticket to DQ no matter what language he/she speaks. I would much rather hear that than a guy ask me if I understand the COF. Something about that bugs me.. I guess because I have to respond. Maybe I'm just contrary. JT I just returned from the Gator Classic in Louisiana, and I must say the staff was the friendliest bunch I have ever been around. I can appreciate the fact they are from "the big easy" and are a laid back people. I'm saying this to also say most of the staff asked each and every shooter if they understood the CoF or if they had any questions. Didn't hear the first person complain about this. Lots of people like to fuss about it on the forums, but I have yet to hear anyone say anything about not liking it on the range. They were a friendly bunch, very courteous, and they wanted to make sure everybody understood everything. I'm not so up tight when I'm shooting to let a question like that bother me. If it bothers you, well, I don't know what to tell you other than you don't want to attend the Gator Classic. To the staff, thanks for asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Ellis Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Been downrange myself resetting a troublesome drop turner when I heard a LAMR command. Came to a 4 foot hover, made noises that could be understood in any language, and hauled out of there. Poor shooter at the line with gun in one hand and mag in the other was standing there with his mouth open. Dude was so shaken that he had to take a pass and shoot later in the squad. Stage was a complicated field course with the drop turner behind a couple walls. Myself I was kneeling trying to fiddle with the latch, behind the wall out of sight. Easy to see how I was missed. Yes all fingers point to the RO as the one who has the responsibility. However I'm with Il-Sig in that it's the shooters responsibility also. I check myself and so sorry if it slows down the squad. Trust but verify. Locally I don't hear "Line's Hot" so much. "Is everybody back?" bellowed in the form of a question works very well and for some reason many in the squad will take a look downrange to check for themselves. Myself I never leave anybody alone downrange. I keep myself visible to the RO. We have to watch each others back in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 This has bbeen a great discussion. I routinely use the range is hot announcement but am not normally in front of the shooter when I do so. Some in the gallery, , without understanding what is going on, get excited thinking I am going to continue in front of the shooter with the LAMR command. I think I will let them get excited if it eliminates the shooter being confused. Thanks for all the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Let's don't forget, the "load and" is no longer a part of the range commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) I knew one of the senior guys would chime in that it could cause issues and it can, but I think it's still a good idea and I use it locally. I use it for many reasons, but the two biggest are if someone got missed and to warn everyone to get their eyes and ears on. If you are worried about a guy drawing the pistol when you give the command, just position yourself in front of him when you do so. If he pulls it and points it at you he deserves a ticket to DQ no matter what language he/she speaks. I would much rather hear that than a guy ask me if I understand the COF. Something about that bugs me.. I guess because I have to respond. Maybe I'm just contrary. JT I just returned from the Gator Classic in Louisiana, and I must say the staff was the friendliest bunch I have ever been around. I can appreciate the fact they are from "the big easy" and are a laid back people. I'm saying this to also say most of the staff asked each and every shooter if they understood the CoF or if they had any questions. Didn't hear the first person complain about this. Lots of people like to fuss about it on the forums, but I have yet to hear anyone say anything about not liking it on the range. They were a friendly bunch, very courteous, and they wanted to make sure everybody understood everything. I'm not so up tight when I'm shooting to let a question like that bother me. If it bothers you, well, I don't know what to tell you other than you don't want to attend the Gator Classic. To the staff, thanks for asking. I wasn't asking you to tell me anything Bobby... I said I don't like it. What's the point? I say, "no I don't understand the COF could you help me?" That would be coaching and not allowed anyway. The only thing you can tell me is start position and if I have forgotten that I'll ask. When I walk to the line I want to RocknRoll and that time is my time to clear my head. I don't want to hear anything that pulls my thought from where I am right in that moment. A question that needs ta response does that to me where as a "going hot" command does not... as a matter of fact that really sets me in the moment. I'm glad it doesn't bother you, but it's not the case for me... it's not something I would bitch to the RO about, but something I would rather not deal with as it serves no purpose and distracts me. JT Edited October 28, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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