Gary Stevens Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Just to clarify the point one more time, the President has sole authority for the type, venue, and dates of the Nationals. The question of "Doesn't the BOD know....." when related to the Nationals is not a valid question. That does not mean we did not voice our opinions, but the decision is not ours. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Gary, Point Taken. I guess I shouldn't be so nagative. I really do like the fact that there will be a better chance of winning, with all the divisions shooting at once. Also, compaired to National in Bend this year, the time off isn't that big of a difference. "Engage brain first, then activate mouth" or in this case key board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 There is a world shoot coming up , and like the last one the nationals that year were set up differently for shooters to earn slots on team USA, and concentrate on one disipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I can see the grassy knoll from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 God forbid somebody other than the Top six should win a Nationals Title...... Should someone other than the top shooters win a Nationals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 For those worried about a diluted talent pool....I ask, "should we run the Nationals in such a format that the top 6 shooters in the country can go trophy hunting at the financial expense of the organization"? God forbid somebody other than the Top six should win a Nationals Title...... I just don't know what to say to that entire post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 The Nationals always used to take a week. I haven't been to one since the mid 90's though. I always drove on Saturday. Hung out and rested from the drive on Sunday, shot Monday through Friday with shootoff on Saturday morning. Then drove home on Sunday. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 3-4 days of shooting is acceptable, anything more than that will have to happen without many of those of us who work for a living. But if Troy is right, then the pistol event is a 4-day shooting match. Better be 24 stages then... As far as format and divisions go, something new every year, one wonders why. But then, why not... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 To find out if there are workable formats where shooters attend and the organization doesn't lose many thousands of dollars, one has to experiment with different concepts. Mike has tried several different formats to varying degrees of success or failure. This is one of the last formats to experiment with. There does not appear to be any magic bullet for this issue. Continuing to run multiple nationals in different venues or back to back allow shooters to take a few days off and shoot a nationals. This is a good thing. It also has proven to be very expensive and has placed a financial strain on the organization that must be addressed. Running a combined nationals over several days will prohibit some individuals from attending and that is a bad thing, but it might break even on the cost side. Most people get a week or two vacation, and with a almost a year notice should be workable. You don't have to stay past Friday and attend the shoot off, and you can have a friend pick up your prize for you. I used to use two weeks vacation time to set up the nationals one week and then work it the next week. It can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Many of you have echoed my thoughts of a single pisto match. I summarize by saying... Mike Voight and the BOD, WTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Sorry Eric I guess I am off center tonight, but you lost me. WTF what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 The schedule looks as if it is going to be just like this years Factory Gun which is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I emailed Michael Voigt for a clarification of the Nationals scheduled, and he responded within a couple hours.... looks like it is 5 days of shooting, Mon-Fri, Shootoff and Prizes Saturday. Maybe I can make it afterall..... Below are excerpts from my email, with Voigt's responses in Blue. I have to say that I am extremely disappointed in the length of the proposed match. [<Michael Voigt>] So am I, but budget constraints and several other factors have necessitated one match this year. In the not so distant past, we used to have 4or 5 day (or less) shoots, that would fit into 1 calendar week or less, including travel time..... now with this 7 day shoot, plus travel time, it will take a minimum of 9 days out of my schedule, and 7 days of vacation .[<Michael Voigt>] Actually we will be shooting for 5 days with shootoffs and prizes on Saturday. If you fly in Sunday, stay to pick up prizes on Saturday - you could leave for home Saturday afternoon. For your average USPSA member such as myself who shoots this sport as a hobby, taking that much vacation all at once for one match is not realistic. I (and many others) only get a few days off a year, and now I have to choose between having a real family vacation, and shooting the Nationals. I don't have enough time off to do them all. [<Michael Voigt>] With the decision to hold one match, there is the need to open it to quite a few more shooters which requires more days on the range. Unfortunately there is no way around the numbers that are involved. I know that USPSA has been battling attendance problems the last few years for the National matches, and I don't disagree with having just one combined match, but is the solution to make it a mega-match? Is 24 stages a match, or a survival course? 7 days of shooting isn't a match, its a marathon. Even die-hard shooters can only take so much at once! [<Michael Voigt>] I understand your concern, but will have to say that the best attended match in IPSC is the World Shoot. There were in excess of 900 competitors, shooting 35 stages in 5 days in South Africa. A recent, well attended match in Czechoslovakia had 40 stages... Maybe the solution to higher attendance for the Nationals is to have a shorter match, not a longer one. For those that aren't professional shooters, vendors, or working in the firearms industry, a 3-4 day format with fewer stages with lower entry fees would in my humble opinion cause attendance to sky rocket. [<Michael Voigt>] I was the one that put that idea into motion, and sadly it hasn't proven to be financially capable at this time. And while PASA is a nice facility, having the match closer to major tourist draws (such as Orlando, or Vegas) would help justify the trip even further for those who's family would piggy back along and make it the yearly Family vacation. [<Michael Voigt>] I agree! Las Vegas doesn't want any matches at this point in time and the range I looked at in Orlando doesn't have enough bays to host an "All Divisions" Nationals at this time. If we can boost Nationals attendance to the point where two handgun Nationals are a reality, I plan to pursue holding one of the matches in Orlando. It just isn't feasible for most shooters to consider a 9 day trip for 1 match..... I can do 2 or 3 Area matches for the same time, and less money if I drove. This coming year, I committed to using 5 days of vacation and attending the Nationals, or else! Now I see that it will take that time, both weekends, plus maybe 2 more days off for travel - and once again I can't afford or am likely unable to attend the Nationals..[<Michael Voigt>] I think you have misread the schedule, we are planning to shoot the match stages Monday through Friday. No days off, 5 stages per day. We should be done early afternoon on Friday. I really want to attend next year - one shorter match for each division separated by a few months time to allow for shorter trips, or one much shorter combined match, would have allowed this. [<Michael Voigt>] That was the plan... until we saw the financial results from the 2003 Nationals. Please feel free to contact me again if this does not answer your questions completely. Michael Voigt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I like the Pistol Nationals schedule. Seems to me that the majority of folks have Sat/Sun off (not me I get weird days) The schedule allows travel on Saturday Sept 11, relax and register on Sept 12. Shoot Mon-Fri, shootoffs and awards on Sat and travel on Sunday. Looks like the majority will only take five days vacation. The more shooters you have at a match the more stages you need to have to minimize down time. I recently shot a match with 350 shooters and 10 stages. Took forever and had horrible waits. Not a fun match. If they have 500 shooters show up they're going to need all days they have. As far as shooting the match in Barry in September. All I have heard for the last two years is people complaining about the heat in Barry in the summer. If there are some juniors that can't make the National Championship, but a larger number of shooters come because they won't drop of heat exhaustion, I'm not losing any sleep over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Schwab Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Perhaps if the assault weapons ban really does sunset, scheduled for Sept 14th, we can have an evening of celebration in Quincy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Jon, the best shooter on that day should win a Nationals title. TDean, the financial statements of past Nationals speak volumes. The last years format LOST money. It really isn't that tough to understand that losing money wasn't an acceptable outcome. Seperate Nationals provided the "top 6" with multiple opportunities to pick up National Titles. Now, the big guns have to pick the division they (or their sponsors) care about most. Opens up more opportunity for others AND saves a few bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 "Opportunity"?? I know they have to do what they have to do financially, but I don't like diluting the competition. A "Nationals" should be the best against the best. This is a competition isn't it? I could win revolver division every month at local matches, but if there are no other revolver shooters I don't exactly get excited about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmshtr Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I think it sucks not being able to shoot more than one Nationals. It works out better for people with less annual leave, but it's a bad move. Why should the shooters suffer because of last year's Nationals match mismanagement. I've helped run large matches, and I KNOW it can be done without losing money. How can I get 11 guns DONATED to the 2001 Area 8 PLUS have cash prizes, and USPSA only be able to BUY 5 guns and 12 Frames for the Limited Nationals...at cost??? DON'T GET ME WRONG...the table wasn't too bad last year, but why can't USPSA see who will donate, and who won't.....then start the purchasing. Where else is the money going??? RO's? Range Fees? Inquiring minds want to know. Surely there's an accountant out there who shoots IPSC. Maybe they can help! And for those who think that the competition won't be diluted is wrong. Look at last year's participants, especially in Open. Last year had the best line-up of top shooters since the 90's. If the top 10 shooters (at the time) are spread out over 4 divisions instead of one, how is that NOT diluted. As far as the time of year, what impact will this have on Junior participation? It certainly won't help it. I love this sport and USPSA, and I couldn't imagine competing in anything else. It's really hard to see decisions like this made that will only hurt OUR organization. Practicing for PPC, Phil Strader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Hi Phil, Glad to see (hear) you. There are expenses associated with running a Nationals that are not normally associated with a local match. With very rare exceptions all the Area matches break even or make a small profit for the club. Part of this is because they use a lot of their local RO types for staff. The Nationals has cost such as range rentals, which may not be a local problem, and the big item is staff cost. While mistakes are made with the best of intentions, we have always tried to put a professional, experienced staff on the range to assist you in your shooting. Our goal is to have a perfect officiated match and let the best shooters win without the staff wrongly getting involved. Just as shooters, the staff doesn't always shoot all "A's", but we keep trying. The trend today is shooters want more stages, this takes more staff to run them. Each additonal stage raises the cost of the Nationals. It cost less to put on a 8-10 stage Area match than a 20-24 stage Nationals. The prize table is actually one of the lesser cost to the Nationals, although still significant. There are fixed cost associated with this venture, and the only way they can be off set is with increased attendence. That has not been the case for several years. Different venues and formats have been tried and we have lost significant money every year for the several years. It has nothing to do with last years Nationals or any particular Nationals, it is a continuing pattern. We could continue the same pattern and at some point cease to exist in any meaningful form, or attempt to provide a quality match and still stay solvent. To Mike's credit he is attempting to make the best of a bad situation. The financial bleeding has to stop or we all may be shooting PPC again. The next time we run into each other on the range, I'll buy the cold drinks and maybe we can find some new solutions to our mutual problems. Take care, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 "Lets not bicker and argue over..." Ladies and gentleman, the decision has been made. Whether you agree with it or not, whole or in part, is really irrelevant. The only questions that really need answered now are: 1) Will you attend? and 2) What division will you choose? and then to paraphrase our own Mr. Anderson: "Now that you've picked one, shut up and f*&%ing practice!" What we can do is, based on the rash of responses posted, is start cultivating ideas for the 2005 Nationals. Just my $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 It could be said that the best thing to do is attend the match, contribute to the match (financially and as a shooter) and let Mike V. know personally how you feel about the arrangements. Staying home in protest will only make it worse. Tell him it's your first trip to the Nats, you hate the format and here's what you really wanna see... The best intentions cannot compete with red ink. I for one am glad it's in driving distance, although my vacation days are very flexible and I understand those that aren't. Thanks for the para-phrase Big Dave, although its really a Caspian-phrase. SA (taking a break from practice-preaching:)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Schwab Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 "Lets not bicker and argue over..."Ladies and gentleman, the decision has been made. Whether you agree with it or not, whole or in part, is really irrelevant. The only questions that really need answered now are: 1) Will you attend? and 2) What division will you choose? Dave, I second that motion. I'll be there shooting Open, how about you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 That's a good way to look at it. I'll be there, shooting Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 A couple of thoughts......... PASA in Sept is not my idea of nice weather, I would prefer if we are going to host the Nationals there we do it in the spring. 24 Stages? I like it, I like it!!!!!! One big match, I like that too. Crapy prize table? We should do away with the prize table. The point of shooting the Nationals is to win a title, not a prize. If I remember correctly it is an Amatuer sport, right? If you are interested in winning a prize, try one of the other big matches, several offer excellent prize tables. Hurts the Jr's, yes, it appears that it does. Maybe moving it to the Spring could help with that also. Mike Voight rigging the Nationals so he can win the 3 Gun? Mke has done more to bring life back into this sport the any other President we have had. The fact that he is capable of winning National and World titles is what allows him to see the sport more from a shooters perpective then the last couple of Presidents we have had. Diluting the talent pool? I always thought the idea behind L10 and Production was to provide non professional divisions (or entry level) for everyone else to shoot in. My complaint with the separate Nationals was just that. It just created a new trophy for the same guys to win. If one of the big dogs wants to be the Production National Champion let him support the division by shooting it all year and then competing in Production in the Nationals. The idea of having a Production National title is to award the best Production shooter in the nation. Not the best Open shooter in the nation that happened to swing a sponsorship deal for one match. Count me in, I'm going.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I agree with making it into one match but I think that it should have been in the summer so that the juniors could go. I mean they would only have to move it back like 3-4 weeks. Other than that I like the idea of 24 stages. I might make this my first nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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