2009 Open/Production Nationals Popper Issues

[Nik Habicht]

Just to stir the pot up a little bit… One shooter on my squad got a reshoot (I don’t remember who, and I don’t remember what stage) after he hit a popper twice and then left it standing. The Range Master didn’t fire a shot at it to calibrate it. They just determined that the popper was faulty and awarded a reshoot.

The shooter made a choice -- a risky choice -- and effectively won the calibration when the match officials discovered a problem. The other shooter also made a choice -- to shoot the popper down. It took multiple rounds. Ever seen someone fire a round, hit a plate low and crack the base right off? Are we certain that all eight rounds hit the calibration zone? Is it possible that one of the shooter's rounds hit low enough to have "been the bullet that finally broke the popper's back?" We can't know --- because the competitor shot the popper down.

If someone wants to propose a specific new draft for the rules dealing with steel, I'm thinking a new thread here would be a fine place to start.....

Nik- It doesn't sound like somebody followed the rules.....

Bill,

read item 7 of Appendix C1. Prior to calibration a visual inspection of the popper is conducted. If it's broke -- REF. That option goes away though if it's been shot down....

[zhunter]

This isn't the first time this has happened...at the Nationals..nor the second.

It's not the first time it was arb'd...using the same rule...and lost.

Then, there is a pattern of problems... that have been handled against the MEMBERS better judgement.

I see this needs to be addressed after the Back-to-Backs are over, and sooner rather than later.

[Jadeslade]

DISCLAIMER: I have only skimmed over the past 5 pages of posts.

I have to agree with what Thomas Moore wrote back on page 3:

I too would like to see the rules change on the poppers. I feel if you pass chrono and you have a full diameter center hit on a popper and it doesn't go down, then that should be range failure and a reshoot for the competitor.

I have been there, done that, look here for yourself:

2007 Missouri / C.O.P.S. Fall Classic, my first major USPSA match

I made it to an RO class in November of 2007, where Gary Stevens set me and probably the whole class straight on what to do when a popper fails to fall.

Me? Personally? I would like to see poppers stacked one behind the other go away, permanently as a stage design. Especially rearward falling poppers where it would be easy to skip a bullet off of one and over the berm to parts unknown.

Oh, if you watch the vid linked to above, keep watching until the very end. Not even my fellow squadmates had a good handle on what to do...so I was getting all sorts of conflicting advice.

Chills can you say clusterf***. Great video and example of stupid rule. However, I would disagree with you about poppers and stage design. Here is an example of a club and staff that know how to deal with steel. Area 6 2009, "Field of Steel II". An all steel field course, shot by a man who needs no introduction. I think this was considered a fantastic stage by all competitors. Not one complaint about the poppers. I think there were 20-22 poppers, with several double stacks, a couple of 4 stacks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkZVqq0hVE8...PL&index=13

[Jadeslade]

Bill,

read item 7 of Appendix C1. Prior to calibration a visual inspection of the popper is conducted. If it's broke -- REF. That option goes away though if it's been shot down....

I love you man.

[JThompson]

This is what I'm talkng about and it happens all over the place. Would it be so hard to give the RO the power to walk down there and see those nice center hits and go... Heh, let's set this sucker back up and get the RM down here for calibration shot. I mean just what are we protecting that is so sacred we can't check this out?

A popper that has been shot is in an "unknown" state. It could have been freed by being hit or be pushed back. The fact is there is no way to tell what state it's in after being hit. The best shot at a true calibration would be to reset the popper and shoot it clean without having a shot on it already, or if a shooter left it up to take one calibration shot and then, if it falls, reset it and take another if it doesn't fall after either of those, it's a reshoot. If it falls with the first shot you reset and take another, if it falls with both shots then the cof is scored as shot.

What is lost by giving the RO the power to call for a calibration whenever they see fit? He/She can see a popper fall slow and go down after the run and tweak it if needed. As a matter of fact RO adjust poppers all the time to keep them "in" calibration. Why then do we not trust them to make a call for calibration after a problem is seen? You trust them to keep everything in working order, but when there is plainly something very wrong we tie their hands with the rules.

"Sorry you got screwed pal," but those are the rules... Then to rub salt in the wound they go fix the damn thing for the next shooter. Does that sound fair to any rational person?

That dog don't hunt....

JT

DISCLAIMER: I have only skimmed over the past 5 pages of posts.

I have to agree with what Thomas Moore wrote back on page 3:

I too would like to see the rules change on the poppers. I feel if you pass chrono and you have a full diameter center hit on a popper and it doesn't go down, then that should be range failure and a reshoot for the competitor.

I have been there, done that, look here for yourself:

2007 Missouri / C.O.P.S. Fall Classic, my first major USPSA match

I made it to an RO class in November of 2007, where Gary Stevens set me and probably the whole class straight on what to do when a popper fails to fall.

Me? Personally? I would like to see poppers stacked one behind the other go away, permanently as a stage design. Especially rearward falling poppers where it would be easy to skip a bullet off of one and over the berm to parts unknown.

Oh, if you watch the vid linked to above, keep watching until the very end. Not even my fellow squadmates had a good handle on what to do...so I was getting all sorts of conflicting advice.

Edited September 17, 2009 by JThompson

[Chills1994]

@ jadeslade.... oh...noesss... I am not against all steel stages.

I would just rather see stacked poppers be of the falling forward type and/or have the CoF set up so that the shooters aren't tempted to hammer rearward falling popper downs...i.e. give the shooter something else to do while waiting for the poppers to fall.

back now, more on subject... I would rather see the benefit of the doubt go to the shooter, even moreso if it is at a major match where there is a chrono stage.

I suppose a proposal for a new rule could be written something to the effect that if a popper takes two or more hits to go down, , when the shooter finishes the stage, then the RO doesn't call out the time for the stage, goes forward to look at where the hits are on the popper, and if they are in the calibration zone, then the RO asks the shooter if he/she wants a re-shoot. If the shooter doesn't want a reshoot, then the RO can go ahead and call out the time and continue scoring the rest of the targets. I wouldn't even bother asking for an RM or a MD to show up with some 9mm ammo at about 115 to 120-ish PF to show up and shoot the popper.

At the local level, the squadmates will just have to be sure to paint the poppers between every shooter.

Now, if you wanted to get really technical, then yeah, I suppose at a major match where there is a chrono set up, the RO or scorekeeper could "confiscate" some ammo from the shooter's dropped mags on a stage with a balky popper. Then that ammo and the shooter go directly to the chrono stage for testing.

Anywhooo....just throwing that out there...

Edited September 17, 2009 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

Just brainstorming here for a second... new pepper poppers could be made so that any hit below the calibration zone would actually hit hard cover.

Or the existing pepper poppers could be retrofited with a piece of steel flatstock or channel iron so that any hits below the calibration zone are blocked or shielded.

Kinda like this one here:

Yeah, I know, probably too expensive...too heavy...

[Bill Nesbitt]

Are poppers "maintained" by the ROs? Are they allowed to give them a little push every so often to make sure they are still close to calibration?

Or must they wait for a major failure that ruins somebody's match?

It's not rocket science to maintain a popper.

[rgkeller]

Just to stir the pot up a little bit… One shooter on my squad got a reshoot (I don’t remember who, and I don’t remember what stage) after he hit a popper twice and then left it standing. The Range Master didn’t fire a shot at it to calibrate it. They just determined that the popper was faulty and awarded a reshoot.

Perhaps a well known shooter?

[Gary Stevens]

Bill has touched on an important issue. As RO's or shooters reset steel they should take a second and look at it. If it has a pronounced forward lean on it, tell someone before the next shooter does LAMR. Of course pins work out and things break, but a simple look can solve problems most of the time.

I have always felt that I should be able to take some action as an RO/CRO when a steel is being hit and not falling. However, it was explained to me by NROI that there is no provisions in the rulebook to do so. I learned to accept it. This situation has bit many of us in some way or form. I was shooting South Carolina a few years ago. There was a popper that activated two appearing targets. I was shooting Production, therefore minor, and hit the popper in the calibration zone but near the 6 o'clock position. The popper did not go down. I quickly figured the RM would hit the popper higher than I did, and it would probably fall, therefore giving me a bunch of misses and FTE's for the other two targets. I did a flat footed reload and hit it again higher and it fell.

In this case, I think the issue was not the popper, but the activation cables were a little tight and didn't give the popper much of a head start before it yanked on the cables.

Oh well, such is life I guess.

Gary

[XRe]

Don't turn this post into something it's not, because you have no idea of the other RO mistakes that happened in this match that caused more problems than what is being discussed in this thread, and further affected the outcome in a detrimental way.

Do we really need to go there??? We're talking about how bad steel is handled, here, not some rant thread on how crappy we think the ROing was at the Nationals (which isn't an appropriate thread for this forum...).

In terms of the thread, it doesn't matter one whit how this would have affected any particular shooters outcome vs. another in that particular match. This is a general problem that affects all shooters (Production, perhaps, far more than others). Lynne dismissing it as "it doesn't matter cause she wouldn't have beaten Julie anyway" kind of thing is rude, and entirely missing the whole point of the thread.

In case no one has done the math on the penatlties involved if the poppers (plural) were left standing, it would be a mike for the "un" broken, "un" calibrated popper, a mike for the US popper behind it, and a FTE for the US popper since it could not be engaged. My math says that's 40 points down before the targets are scored on an 85 point stage.

Math done at least twice above by yours truly... No, you wouldn't want to run off leaving those kinds of points in question, even if it was a 160 point stage. I've seen other cases where it gets even more painful, where leaving the steel standing guarantees a zero on the stage if the calibration test knocks the popper over.

Most of us know that popper calibration tests usually do NOT go the way of the competitor. You can have a center punched popper, shot with 180 PF ammo, staring you in the face at the end of a stage and it will usually fall when re-shot with a calibration load.

Been there, done that. You are entirely correct - depending on how the popper has failed, all kinds of strangeness can occur.

I have been there, done that, look here for yourself:

2007 Missouri / C.O.P.S. Fall Classic, my first major USPSA match

...

...

Oh, if you watch the vid linked to above, keep watching until the very end. Not even my fellow squadmates had a good handle on what to do...so I was getting all sorts of conflicting advice.

Under no circumstances should anyone take the advice offered by the other shooter at the end of that vid! Don't ever stop. Either drive the thing over and suck it up, or leave it standing and move on through the rest of the stage. Sometimes hard to remember in the heat of battle. In the situation Chills had, it was the same story - 40 points gone if the popper fell during calibration. What if it had been the 1st popper, instead of the third? 90 points!

The Range Master didn't fire a shot at it to calibrate it. They just determined that the popper was faulty and awarded a reshoot.

read item 7 of Appendix C1. Prior to calibration a visual inspection of the popper is conducted. If it's broke -- REF. That option goes away though if it's been shot down....

Nik is entirely correct. If visual inspection shows the popper to be broken or somehow obstructed, there is no need to fire a calibration shot.

Perhaps a well known shooter?

That doesn't matter one damn bit to anything in this thread. Let's not go there either

[XRe]

I have always felt that I should be able to take some action as an RO/CRO when a steel is being hit and not falling. However, it was explained to me by NROI that there is no provisions in the rulebook to do so. I learned to accept it.

Same boat here, Gary...

I was shooting Production, therefore minor, and hit the popper in the calibration zone but near the 6 o'clock position. The popper did not go down. ... I did a flat footed reload and hit it again higher and it fell.

In this case, you were also staring at 95 points down, which probably assures you of a zero on the stage. You can't exactly leave that kind of risk hanging around in question. But... two shots on the steel would not be enough for a reasonable RO to want to stop you, either (perhaps unfortunately).

Not to put you on the spot (I'd never do that, would I??? ), but... Should someone write up a reasonable proposal for how this sort of situation (ie, shooter's banging away at and hitting the popper square, but its still not going over) that allows the RO to stop the shooter, check the gear and the shooter's ammo, and then have them reshoot... Would that get any play at the BOD for future rules discussion?

[Jack Suber]

Those of you who have shot the South Carolina Section Championship in the last couple of years know that we have very soft sand at our range. As a result, poppers tend to "work themselves heavy" after many shooters. The first match I MD'd, was a nightmare. The RM was running all over the place calibrating. We learned, though. We tell our ROs to be watching the poppers and if they start to look squirely, call the RM or me for calibration/adjustment/recalibration. It can save a lot of headaches if the ROs know to be watching. We had a couple of calls for calibrations this year, but for the most part we were ahead of the issues. Calibrations/reshoots cost time so if it can be handled before it is a problem, better. That is also why we do not like competitors to set steel or past targets. Once you get a stage crew that has a system down, there is less potential for mechanical errors on stages. The dedicated crew will know what to look for and can identify any potential problems.

[Jack Suber]

I have always felt that I should be able to take some action as an RO/CRO when a steel is being hit and not falling. However, it was explained to me by NROI that there is no provisions in the rulebook to do so.

Gary,

So the CRO/RO does not have the authority to declare it a range equipment malfunction according to the rules? If it were me and I saw the shooter knocking down poppers before getting to one that would not fall, I would consider that a Range Equipment Malfunction. I doubt I would call it on 2 shots, but 6 would get my attention. As a CRO, what would happen if I did stop the shooter after, say, the 6th shot for REF?

[larry cazes]

Don't turn this post into something it's not, because you have no idea of the other RO mistakes that happened in this match that caused more problems than what is being discussed in this thread, and further affected the outcome in a detrimental way.

Good Shootin',

TGR

Looks like you already have turned this into a rant against the ROs running this match? You are right in that I wasn't there, unfortunately these ROs are not here to defend themselves either. This started as a civil discussion on popper calibration rules and has degenerated from there. Done.

[Jadeslade]

Don't turn this post into something it's not, because you have no idea of the other RO mistakes that happened in this match that caused more problems than what is being discussed in this thread, and further affected the outcome in a detrimental way.

Good Shootin',

TGR

Looks like you already have turned this into a rant against the ROs running this match? You are right in that I wasn't there, unfortunately these ROs are not here to defend themselves either. This started as a civil discussion on popper calibration rules and has degenerated from there. Done.

Larry, could you please explain some of your thinking? At least two people have asked you and you have not. Lots of people have presented the pluses of changing the rules in great detail. In response there has been a lot of hand wringing about not wanting to change the rules and opinions about it, but no cogent explanation of why that would be a bad idea. The degeneration of this thread started when posters started to diss Randi, not posters dissing the RO's and the rules. I think TGReaper is just honestly presenting his opinion to defend Randi from unwarranted attacks. She did the right thing, she competed her guts out and I have been offended by the posters questioning her decisions and competitive instincts. As Xre pointed out, this isn't about a particular shooter or RO or MD, it is about a persistent problem that has been identified. Thanks. DVC

[raz-0]

kind of late to the argument here, but there are really only two problems with steel.

1) The notion that steel is some sort of test of power factor. (Isn't that what we have chronos for?)

2) wind.

Also, is there not an inherent flaw in the rules? In theory, you have match ammo that is officially declared the calibration load, and a match gun officially declared the calibration gun. Then on top of it you have official ammo that shooters can buy that are blessed as making minor, even if they don't in all guns.

Set the steel light. Or maybe do something odd like make the official calibration round 9x18 makarov. Something that is below the power factor floor in every factory loading I have seen.

[Fireant]

persistent problem?

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Hardly. There were 426 competitors at the first half of the nationals and only 1 arb(that I know) of for steel. I'm still waiting for the persuasive arguement for changing the rule that is not based on either shooter error ( given the choices in the rule book) or RO/RM error. When/if I were to see that I would be all in for a rule change that would not be a step backwards from what we have. I personally think anything requiring counting the number of hits, or identifying the number of hits on steel is a step in the wrong direction. I also see giving the RO the discretion to stop a shooter as bad mojo for a rule.

[Jack Suber]

kind of late to the argument here, but there are really only two problems with steel.

1) The notion that steel is some sort of test of power factor. (Isn't that what we have chronos for?)

2) wind.

Also, is there not an inherent flaw in the rules? In theory, you have match ammo that is officially declared the calibration load, and a match gun officially declared the calibration gun. Then on top of it you have official ammo that shooters can buy that are blessed as making minor, even if they don't in all guns.

Set the steel light. Or maybe do something odd like make the official calibration round 9x18 makarov. Something that is below the power factor floor in every factory loading I have seen.

Raz-o,

At our section matches, we load 9mm to a PF of 115 (last year it actually worked out to 116 in identical pistols). We chrono each "chrono gun" before shooting starts (the Chrono person signs a certification indicating that each of the disignated handgun shot ___ PF) and then calibrate poppers. If an M&P at 116 pf takes a popper down, they are pretty light. Are other matches not doing this?

[Alan Meek]

Area 8 did that.

[Chuck Anderson]

I've seen a couple ideas presented to correct this problem. I don't think that any of them except Alan's would work consistently. First there is the idea that an RO can stop a shooter who hits a popper multiple times because of REF. This doesn't account for the fact that I'm betting 90% plus of the shooters at this match shot multiple poppers, multiple times on purpose. This leads to the RO's having to use discretion instead of rules. What about the shooter who hits a popper three times and says it went down slower than the shooter that hit it two times. Is that cause for a reshoot. What if the RO is positive that the shooter is right?

Next is the idea of allowing shooters to call for calibrations of poppers that are down. Personally I know many shooters that would take advantage of this rule. Oops, I had a mike and a no shoot. Hey! RO, that popper went down a bit slow, I want a calibration on it, hoping that the RM will hit a bit high. At a match like the Nats where there actually is a designated RM doing nothing else this might not be so horrible. The rules need to apply to club matches and Nationals equally. How many reshoots would you get at your local 6 stage club match from people that just want to improve their scores.

I do like the idea of resetting the popper on an actual calibration but that wouldn't have changed anything in this case. If it's shot down by the shooter, there isn't much that can be done without opening the door to all sorts of gaming.

I'm definitely not harping on Randi. She made the only logical, and competitive decision she could make in that situation. Good for her for keeping her head. As far as the popper being out of calibration because it took 30 minutes to fix. There is nothing in the rules that allows this to make any difference once it's shot down. If there was would just Randi get a reshoot? What about the competitor who went before her, or the 150 that went before her. Stuff breaks when we shoot at it, or heck even near it. The staff fixing it doesn't change the fact that the current rules, which the RO's have to go by, don't allow them to give her a reshoot. I would love to give the shooter a reshoot. It seems like the fair thing to do. But what about the shooter who finished ahead of Randi. Is it fair to him that the person he beat during the match is given a reshoot that isn't allowed under the rules and beats him? It's not just fairness to the shooter. It's fairness to all the shooters. Giving one a reshoot that is disallowed hurts everyone else. It's all well and good to say that everyone should shoot under the same conditions and that no one would want to beat another shooter based on those circumstances. But should one of the RO's give Dave Sevigny a reshoot because the dust kicked up as he was shooting and he couldn't see as well as Vogel? (hypothetical situation, I have no idea if it happened). I saw it happen to a couple shooters on my squad. The wind kicked up just as the buzzer went off and they could barely see the targets on Stage 12. The rules aren't perfect, they never will be. But I haven't seen anything (again other than Alan's idea) that I can see working.

[BayouSlide]

In response there has been a lot of hand wringing about not wanting to change the rules and opinions about it, but no cogent explanation of why that would be a bad idea.

Actually, from my reading, there have been a lot of citations of the rule book which show that the rules are very clear as they stand now. Which has nothing to do with whether or not they should be changed.

The most you should expect from an RO is strict adherence to the rule book. Work to change the rules if you're unhappy with them. You'll find a lot of posts from me during period of comment on the recent revisions to the rules in Production: I thought the most recent rule book didn't fairly address some issues regarding modifications. Many people, but not everyone, felt the same: those rules were changed. That's the way to deal with the issue, not asking match officials to read between the lines of the rule book to find something that's not there.

Curtis

[Chills1994]

I'd say get rid of the calibration procedure for poppers entirely....if...IFFF!!! there is a "calibration" for the competitor's handgun and ammo at the match already...ya know?...a chronograph stage.

If there are two hits in what we now call the "calibration zone" on the popper, then the competitor has the option of taking a reshoot.

Of course, like I mentioned previously, there wouldn't be a need for a "calibration zone" if the pepper popper design was retrofitted or re-engineered.

Getting rid of the popper calibration rigamorale sure would eliminate a lot of headaches, in my opinion, the RM isn't forced to keep track of a 9mm handgun or two and the associated 115-ish PF ammo. Plus, he wouldn't be forced to go around and check all the poppers each morning before the start of a major match.

[BritinUSA]

For as long as I have been in this sport there have been issues with poppers. I have read most of the stuff in this thread in many forms over the years.

In this instance there are a few things that spring to mind;

1. The RO's adjusted the popper for several minutes after Randi shot and before the next competitor. The only reason to adjust the popper is to correct a problem. Therefore they knew a problem existed. There should be a mechanism in the rules to deal with this. If the RO has no authority to stop the shooter when they see a popper is not working then do they have the power to stop the shooter if they see a paper target has blown down in the wind? If they have the authority for the latter then they need it for the former.

2. Poppers should be set so that a hit in the calibration zone by MINOR ammo will cause the popper to fall. If the shooter hits the calibration zone of the popper and it does not fall then chrono the ammo. If the ammo makes it then the popper is at fault, simple logic. You then adjust the popper, re-calibrate with the match calibration ammo and proceed.

[larry cazes]

Don't turn this post into something it's not, because you have no idea of the other RO mistakes that happened in this match that caused more problems than what is being discussed in this thread, and further affected the outcome in a detrimental way.

Good Shootin',

TGR

Looks like you already have turned this into a rant against the ROs running this match? You are right in that I wasn't there, unfortunately these ROs are not here to defend themselves either. This started as a civil discussion on popper calibration rules and has degenerated from there. Done.

Larry, could you please explain some of your thinking? At least two people have asked you and you have not. Lots of people have presented the pluses of changing the rules in great detail. In response there has been a lot of hand wringing about not wanting to change the rules and opinions about it, but no cogent explanation of why that would be a bad idea. The degeneration of this thread started when posters started to diss Randi, not posters dissing the RO's and the rules. I think TGReaper is just honestly presenting his opinion to defend Randi from unwarranted attacks. She did the right thing, she competed her guts out and I have been offended by the posters questioning her decisions and competitive instincts. As Xre pointed out, this isn't about a particular shooter or RO or MD, it is about a persistent problem that has been identified. Thanks. DVC

Hmmm....Do a search here as this subject has been rehashed many times in the past. So far I haven't seen any suggestions for rule changes that wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. I think what we have now works 99% of the time. As far as the crack about the ROs in TGR's response, I sure hope he told the ROs directly what he thought of the quality of their officiating and made a formal complaint to the MD. This is not the appropriate place for it.