Cheating at the Chrono

[Fireant]

After reading the closed post about cheating the chrono, I went and read the entire appendix C in depth. I had always just skimmed this section because well it's just the chrono. It got me to thinking about all the "stuff" I have seen over the years at the chrono station. I think cheating is more wide spread than we think, and I'm not positive those doing it really know they are cheating. Although I realize some know exactly what they are doing.

I have seen the chrono man tell a shooter to go oil his barrel to try and get him that last bit before firing the last bullet, I have seen some well known shooters (yes that is plural meaning a bunch of them) oil their barrels before the chrono when they see the chrono used might be reading a good bit lower than others. We have all been to the match where a lot of shooters come out saying "man, my ammo chronoed 5 PF higher at area__ just last weekend" My point here is if some chrono CRO's don't realize oil in the barrel is not supposed to be allowed, should we change the chrono procedure? Should section 48 of appendix C2 be a mandatory part of the chrono station? I'm thinking yes on this.

I've also seen people at major matches that do not have a scale declare say 124gr as the weight of their bullets( for open major), go minor, then say oh wait a minute so and so loaded this ammo and they used a 130 gr bullet. I think every level 2 and above match should have a chrono AND a scale, hell take some money from the prize table and buy some and a back up. Put the used scales/chrono back on the prize at the end even. I know we like to think that shooters have a higher level of integrity, but every offender I have seen has been a shooter I looked up to and respected (notice that is past tense). This really makes me wonder if the old adage of if you’re not cheating, then you are not trying hard enough, is truer in our game than we like to think.

[DrawandDuck]

The entire Chrono section needs to be re-worked. It needs not to be "suggested" but an exact set of procedures for every match including the equipment......

[George Jones]

The entire Chrono section needs to be re-worked. It needs not to be "suggested" but an exact set of procedures for every match including the equipment......

Much easier said than done. Trust me - been there......

The bottom line is that if you make the chrono procedure too tight, the standard will hardly ever be met and chrono will become another wink/nod.

The "suggestions" and recommendations are there purposely to allow a decent chronomeister to run an effective and fair stage under widely variable conditions.

There is more to running the chrono than just shooting a bunch of guns through a triangle.

[h2osport]

If you are not weighing the bullets, how accurate can the PF calculation be. I thought bullets were always weighed for the chrono station. Not to determine the difference between 124gr and 130gr, but to determine a precise PF. My 180gr bullets actually weigh between 179.8 to 183grains. depending on how the weight averages out, that could allow for a difference in over 10fps to still make PF if you were running on the edge. Weighing should be mandatory if you are gonna chrono.

Randy

[Flexmoney]

Don't run on the edge.

I know how that sounds, but the power factor is a minimum standard, not a goal. If you need to run 175+pf to not worry about it...then that might be the way to go.

[BritinUSA]

If you are not weighing the bullets, how accurate can the PF calculation be. I thought bullets were always weighed for the chrono station. Not to determine the difference between 124gr and 130gr, but to determine a precise PF. My 180gr bullets actually weigh between 179.8 to 183grains. depending on how the weight averages out, that could allow for a difference in over 10fps to still make PF if you were running on the edge. Weighing should be mandatory if you are gonna chrono.

+1

The Montana Gold 124.2 has saved my butt a couple of times. The scale is an absolute must and compared to the price of the chronograph is probably the cheapest part of the equation.

[Dream]

I dissagree..

all matches that crono should be required to use constant lighting,

and that doesn't mean sky screens in the sunlight. We all know that

the crono will vary as per the time of day in sunlight.

we all have been at major matches that use box's and constant lights.

My P.F. seems to be constant there. I shoot open and my P.F. is 172

I have been to matches where i have shot 167 P.F. up to 189 P.F.

using the same ammo in the same area of the country and same

temps..

[h2osport]

Don't run on the edge.

I know how that sounds, but the power factor is a minimum standard, not a goal. If you need to run 175+pf to not worry about it...then that might be the way to go.

Last time I ran my ammo at a major, I thought I was safe at 172PF. I lost 5.5pf at the chrono. I did not think I was running on the edge, but 166.5 was a little to close for comfort. If my bullets had not weighed heavy it would have been even closer. I do not try and run on the edge, and I think lots of people can tell Chrono station experiences where they thought they were safe by quite a bit, but got knocked down to minor.

If weighing is not mandatory can I just tell the chrono station that my average bullet weight is 182.1 and have them calculate the PF that way?

[LChico]

I've also seen people at major matches that do not have a scale declare say 124gr as the weight of their bullets( for open major), go minor, then say oh wait a minute so and so loaded this ammo and they used a 130 gr bullet. I think every level 2 and above match should have a chrono AND a scale, hell take some money from the prize table and buy some and a back up. Put the used scales/chrono back on the prize at the end even. I know we like to think that shooters have a higher level of integrity, but every offender I have seen has been a shooter I looked up to and respected (notice that is past tense). This really makes me wonder if the old adage of if you’re not cheating, then you are not trying hard enough, is truer in our game than we like to think.

Even if the match is requesting a stated weight, you need a scale on the range for the last bullet (where competitors have the option to shoot or weigh the bullet). In SC we keep the scale in stats because it is air conditioned and wind, temperature & humidity issues do not come into play with the scales. No one would lend us one to keep on the range with heat, humidity & dust exposure to expensive electronic scales. Someone in stats is assigned to calibrate the scale each time it is used. We only had 2 shooters request weights at our recent Level II match, & neither made it on the weight. Come to think of it, in the last 16 years, I've never seen anyone make it on the weight.

Certainly if someone "changes" the weight after it was declared initially, we would weigh a bullet. And both the rule book and our match booklet support the matches authority to "re-test" at chrono if there are questions.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[HSMITH]

The biggest change I would like to see is for the MD to make the chrono RANDOM, collect ammo from the belt or dropped mags at RANDOM and send the shooter to the chrono then. It is too easy for what I believe to be just a few people to pull 'special' chrono ammo when asked for the chrono sample.

I think one of the biggest reason people see changes in their own power factor is not chrono'ing a new lot number of powder or bullets, not paying attention to how many times the brass has been fired and loading accordingly, etc.

[bbbean]

Another issue worth considering is that there is no gold standard for chronos. If we suspect scales are off, we can easily check a standardized calibration weight or re-zero. If we line up a dozen zeroed and calibrated scales, they will all give us th esame results.

But line up a dozen chronos, and they'll give similar results, but be off enough to blur the line between major and minor or between minor and no score.

We need calibration test for the chrono. There should be some way to reliably generate a known velocity and calibrate chrono readings accordingly.

[zhunter]

I read a lot lately about brass and using the same headstamp.

I am a bad boy

I used mixed brass for all matches, local and national.

I have never been bitten at the chrono, just the opposite

2008 SS Nats I was VERY diligent in working my load to 172PF

At the moment of truth, I got a match chrono of 183

Believe me, I checked, checked again, and then re-checked on my chrono before I went to SS Nats

Personally, I can't imagine spending money to go to a match and not have a minimum of 5PF cushion, I normally go for 7 PF.

I did have a close call one time, can't remember where, but it was in the 165.5 neighborhood.

Cheating the chrono is easy! I think plenty of shooter have a special stash of chrono ammo in their shooting bag. I am all for random ammo collection

Edited June 2, 2009 by zhunter

[M ammo]

I read a lot lately about brass and using the same headstamp.

I am a bad boy

I used mixed brass for all matches, local and national.

I have never been bitten at the chrono, just the opposite

2008 SS Nats I was VERY diligent in working my load to 172PF

At the moment of truth, I got a match chrono or 183

Believe me, I checked, checked again, and then re-checked on my chrono before I went to SS Nats

Personally, I can't imagine spending money to go to a match and not have a minimum of 5PF cushion, I normally go for 7 PF.

I did have a close call one time, can't remember where, but it was in the 165.5 neighborhood.

Cheating the chrono is easy! I think plenty of shooter have a special stash of chrono ammo in their shooting bag. I am all for random ammo collection

+1Cheating the chrono is easy! I think plenty of shooter have a special stash of chrono ammo in their shooting bag. I am all for random ammo collection

[larry cazes]

Don't run on the edge.

I know how that sounds, but the power factor is a minimum standard, not a goal. If you need to run 175+pf to not worry about it...then that might be the way to go.

Words to live by for sure. The only time I have ever come close to not meeting PF was at our sectional 7 years ago. At that time I was loading to 168pf and just begging for trouble. The current procedure works very well and I think it might benefit from a little tweeking but essentially is pretty sound. I don't think that there is much to be gained from more random sampling procedures and it would add a lot of extra labor for the chrono crew. Remember if someone wants to cheat they will find a way around ANY procedure we put in place. The chrono is just a deterrent not a cure for poor character. I dont think cheating at the chrono is as widespread as some would like us to believe.

[mactiger]

Another issue worth considering is that there is no gold standard for chronos. If we suspect scales are off, we can easily check a standardized calibration weight or re-zero. If we line up a dozen zeroed and calibrated scales, they will all give us th esame results.

But line up a dozen chronos, and they'll give similar results, but be off enough to blur the line between major and minor or between minor and no score.

We need calibration test for the chrono. There should be some way to reliably generate a known velocity and calibrate chrono readings accordingly.

Actually, for the last several Nationals, we do have a standard. We have a 10,000 round lot of 9mm ammo loaded by Precision Delta that we use for calibration, and which, per the rules, must be checked through the chronograph on a daily basis. I've yet to see more than 10 fps difference through my Glock 17 from day to day. (PF 120.5 to 121.5) I know Greg has a supply of other ammo that he checks his instruments with also, and we use CED IR chronos and their scale, all donated, all on the prize table at the end. It's a very consistent and reliable system.

Troy

[JimmyZip]

What I would like to see is a different way to calibrate speed of the bullet that requires NO LIGHT! With a shot timer that can detect a shot, and a stop plate that can detect impact, I can't beleive noone has delved into this type of measuring of speed. This would eliminate the variables. Given distance, and time will work every time. Sure you will have some variables, but the light will not be an issue. Heck, you could measure the speed in the dark, as long as you can hit the stop plate.

[BritinUSA]

That's a pretty neat idea.

[boz1911]

The biggest change I would like to see is for the MD to make the chrono RANDOM, collect ammo from the belt or dropped mags at RANDOM and send the shooter to the chrono then. It is too easy for what I believe to be just a few people to pull 'special' chrono ammo when asked for the chrono sample.

That's a big Hell Yeah!!

[el pres]

I agree, very disapointing !!

It's not just the crono where some at the top of our sport push the envelope for that "little" edge over

the next guy, contrary to the rules .

Some officials also dont want to be the guy to catch that guy doing that or second guess themselfs on the rules ...

[Matt Cheely]

Even without the timer. If you had 2 stop plates each a different distance from the shooter, have a couple rounds fired at each. Knowing the difference in the distance of the 2 stop plates, and the time difference, you could calculate the average speed of the bullets.

[GentlemanJim]

The chrono can be quite unpredictable

I know I had some 170 plus loads chrono at 165.2 ...and saw several folks fail on that one

I would bet they made power...

We just hate to think someone would deliberately cheat....but I have seen cheating of several types

It seems that even in our group, where 99% of the people are the finest you can ask for...The 1% is still there

Jim

[CSEMARTIN]

Come to think of it, in the last 16 years, I've never seen anyone make it on the weight.

Now that is a nugget of information. I'm going to store that one away in my memory banks. Thanks Linda.

[Nik Habicht]

Come to think of it, in the last 16 years, I've never seen anyone make it on the weight.

Now that is a nugget of information. I'm going to store that one away in my memory banks. Thanks Linda.

One of the other useful tidbits --- from George Jones --- is to know the weight of your current lot of bullets. If they average at 147.3, and chronoman has you down at 146.8, you could do the math before deciding....

....obviously you'd want really consistent velocity results (i.e. shooting the last round isn't likely to get you the bump you need) before asking for the last round to be pulled.....

[Xfactor]

Even without the timer. If you had 2 stop plates each a different distance from the shooter, have a couple rounds fired at each. Knowing the difference in the distance of the 2 stop plates, and the time difference, you could calculate the average speed of the bullets.

That would bring atmospheric conditions and bullet ballistic coefficient into the equation big time... probably more complicated to get it "right" than the current process.

[Matt Cheely]

Even without the timer. If you had 2 stop plates each a different distance from the shooter, have a couple rounds fired at each. Knowing the difference in the distance of the 2 stop plates, and the time difference, you could calculate the average speed of the bullets.

That would bring atmospheric conditions and bullet ballistic coefficient into the equation big time... probably more complicated to get it "right" than the current process.

All the conditions are brought into the equation currently, being that the bullets are fired out of the gun in varying conditions. You don't need 100 yards difference in the targets.