What Should Be The Divisions.

[Dowter]

I got an e-mail from my area director forwarded to me from my clubs match director. He was taking input from shooters in his area as to what should be done with Limited 10(as a good area director should be doing )

| OK,

|

| Speak up now. BOD agenda item:

|

| >Limited 10

| >Holster position discussion

| >Approved holsters

|

| What is your opinion on modifying L-10 to require "behind the hip" holster

| and mag pouches and "non-race" holsters?

|

| If you have any other important issues for the BOD meeting, now's the time

| to tell me (along with clear recommendations).

|

| Thanks,

|

| George Jones

| A8 AD

|

|

Here's my response.

-----------------------------------

It doesn't really make any sense to have a division like Lim-10 if the only

difference is the 10 round mag. The difference should be more significant.

If you're going to make the holsters and mag holders - "factory" you might

as well as make the guns too.

How about this - instead of Lim-10 and Production make the two Factory

Divisions "Production-Minor" and "Production-Major" with the only difference

between the two being that one is for major ammo and the other is for minor

ammo. "Production-Major" would keep the same rules as the classic

Production division - holster,mags,etc. (Therefore a true 1911 would have a

home.)

A little off topic but this is my opinion for Production. Eliminate the

double action requirement and replace it with a standard trigger break

weight(3# or something like that) but forbid 1911 style guns so that they

don't dominate another division. A gun that is supposed to be DA at a 3#

break is competitively the same as a gun that is actually SA with a 3# break.

It will bring more guns into the division (minor power - single actions) and

won't scare away DA guns. Here's why.

Traditional Double Actions(Beretta 92, CZ-75) only have one shot DA anyway.

The difference between a course of 1shot DA-29shots SA and a course of 30

shots SA isn't real significant. Also TDAs can (if they want) shoot the

first shot SA so they would be fine anyway.

Guns like Glock, Para LDA and Springfield XD cheat on the definition of

"Double Action" and I know Glock shooters who can get their trigger pull

down under two pounds. These guns always shot like SA guns so they won't be affected.

True Double Action Onlys (DAOs) were always shooting with the above listed

guns that shot like SAs so they won't be any less competive against guns

that are actually SA.

---------------------------------------

What does everyone else think about Limited 10 specifically and what the divions should be in general?

[Matthew_Mink]

Your Area Director is a man of exceedingly great wisdom, foresight, and knowledge. Goes without saying thats what I have been thinking. Change Lim 10 and Revolver to match Production's holster requirements. That makes Factory gun make a little more sense.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Wow! Not this again! What is the issue with leaving Limited 10 alone? A lot of us that shoot it, prefer it to production since it allows more flexibility in choice of guns, rigs, etc. I repeat.....It allows me to use equipment that is similiar to limited but lets me be competitive within my division without encouraging me to commit a magazine related felony.

[Dowter]

Wow! Not this again! What is the issue with leaving Limited 10 alone? A lot of us that shoot it, prefer it to production since it allows more flexibility in choice of guns, rigs, etc. I repeat.....It allows me to use equipment that is similiar to limited but lets me be competitive within my division without encouraging me to commit a magazine related felony.

But with that #$&@! law sunsetting next year (*knock on wood*) the felony problem becomes irrelevant.

[Wakal]

L-10 as it stands now is nothing more than a sop to the egos of the gun-grabbers, and a direct attack on gun rights by showing said gun-grabbers that The Big Dawg of "combat" pistol shooting doesn't need non-gelded magazines.

Changing L-10 to a production-type holster requirement would make it more of a single-stack division. It would let the IDPA/CDP crowd run both sports, same exact gear.

After the AWB sunsets, then we can drop the 10-round limit on it AND Production. Politically correct IPSC divisions...grrr....

Alex

[rhino]

Holster position rules are exactly why I refused to join IDPA as a charter member and never shot a match until the last couple of years.

People already can and do shoot both IDPA and Limited-10 with the same gear. I'm one of them.

It's a CHOICE. Don't limit the choices anymore.

[Vince Pinto]

Dowter,

Please note that the 5 IPSC Divisions are Open, Standard, Modified, Production & Revolver Standard.

There is no Limited Division in IPSC.

I've therefore taken the liberty to correct the first line of your poll.

[Dowter]

Dowter,

Please note that the 5 IPSC Divisions are Open, Standard, Modified, Production & Revolver Standard.

There is no Limited Division in IPSC.

Doh!

[Guest Larry Cazes]

But with that #$&@! law sunsetting next year (*knock on wood*) the felony problem becomes irrelevant.

Not here in California it doesn't.

[Dowter]

But with that #$&@! law sunsetting next year (*knock on wood*) the felony problem becomes irrelevant.

Not here in California it doesn't.

We could just call it California-10 then.

[kimel]

So if we go with the holster/position stuff for L-10 then the only difference between L10 and Production is that L-10 will be the home of the single stack and everything else will go to Production because the Single Action Single Stack (as opposed to the Para LDAs) can't play in Production. Thus, we are alienating a very large percentage of the folks that shoot single stacks and creating a single-stack ghetto. Alienating a large group of people helps our sport grow how? All this will do is help Steel Challenge and IDPA grow and USPSA will die on the vine.

What am I missing here?

This constant rearrangement of things does not really help. Let's leave things alone long enough to at least see how they work.

If (and this is a big IF in my mind) the stupid ban sunsets then then we can lift the mag capacity restrictions on Production and leave L-10 as-is...as a place for those folks to play our game.

FWIW...no, I don't shoot a single stack. I shoot a wide body. But I do shoot with a lot of folks (about half the folks that come out to our local matches) that do shoot single stacks and I would really hate to see these folks left out in the cold. I like them and would like to continue to shoot with them.

[Flexmoney]

Dowter...to save space...I'll just say that I completely disagree with every aspect your proposal.

[Run n Gun]

Dowter, George Jones,

Okay, I’m going to say this one more time LEAVE LIMITED-10 ALONE!!!!!

If you’re really interested in what’s best for L-10 then leave it up to (exclusively) the people that actually participates in the division! The division that’s easiest to argue AGAINST is Open. Expensive, many places against the law and just plain silly.

I joined the USPSA to have a place to shoot my single stack. The only gun I CARE to shoot in my single stack and if you saddle me with stupid rules like wearing my gun behind my hip (a stupid rule, even for Production) I’ll just go find me another game.

At a recent match with a 160 entries 44% shot L-10 and 90% of those people shot 1911s, that’s a lot of people to piss off! Especially for a sport that’s trying to grow.

Ed

[JFD]

How many times do we have to beg for L-10 to be left the hell alone? I have a hard time believing that anyone who actually shoots L-10 is coming up with this stuff. At my local match, Production is the least represented division besides Revolver, and L-10 holds it's own against Limited and Open quite well. I just wrote USPSA a check that included equal mission count/classifier fees for Open, Limited, and L-10.

It's the race guns in Limited and Open that scare away IDPA shooters. Try focusing on L-10 and Production more and you might increase attendance. I personally believe the difficulty level and bad press scares away even more IDPA shooters, but that's just me. I also believe that regardless of fear, boredom and irritation with the level of control will eventually bring more and more IDPA shooters to USPSA if we have a bit of patience (I'm already seeing some of that). If screwing up L-10 is some kind of "plot" to drive more shooters to Limited/Open, then that's just a bad plan.

L-10 is all about freedom. You can currently position your holster and pouches behind your hip IF YOU WANT TO in L-10. I shot my IDPA rig for at least a year before switching to race gear. I hardly jumped from a C shooter to a GM due to that change. I personally like being able to buy a few extra mags when the urge strikes me without having to consult a financial planner. I guess my Power 10 mags would be evil in any new combined division.

The main effect all these threads about screwing up L-10 have had on me is I recently added a local outlaw match to my regular match schedule. If L-10 is ruined, then I have a place to go where there is still a bit of choice and freedom available. I would be mightily tempted to drop our current USPSA affiliation and run an outlaw match according to the current USPSA/IPSC rules. That is about the last thing I ever want to do.

This subject drives me crazy, so try and understand how much many of us really love L-10.

[rishii]

ditto, LEAVE L-10 ALONE

if you feel that you just gotta change something, combine the limited and L-10 classifications. over 95% of the classifiers are revolver neutral. (when was the last time you heard that term.) shooting them with a high cap guns is not an advantage. it make no sense to have 2 seperate classifications when to only difference is one of them holds less ammo.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

If I correctly understand the sentiments expressed here and in previous threads, most people don't want any changes to any of the divisions, however there are some people who believe that their favorite gun is not competitive under the current divisional structure. To the best of my knowledge, these are:

1. Revolver guys who want to shoot "Open-type" revolvers (e.g scoped and/or ported and/or compensated models).

2. Revolver guys with 7 or 8 round guns who don't want a forced reload after 6 rounds.

3. Single Stack guys, who believe that guys with double-stack guns in Limited 10 have an advantage due to larger mag wells.

Did I miss anybody?

Just a thought, but I think it'd be a good idea to identify who is "missing out" before we can really discuss possible solutions.

[vluc]

My response to my AD:

OK,

Speak up now. BOD agenda item:

>Limited 10

>Holster position discussion

>Approved holsters

What is your opinion on modifying L-10 to require "behind the hip" holster

and mag pouches and "non-race" holsters? No, No and No. We already have production division with those ridiculous restrictions, give the opportunity for folks to participate at a reasonable cost in trying with the "race" equipment before expending tremendous amounts of money. Some of us like the challenge of shooting different styles with the same gun. This way, I can run production and L-10, but see if the holster setups make a difference. Makes it easier for me to contemplate running in Limited without the expense of the high cap mags and other mods I may need.

If you have any other important issues for the BOD meeting, now's the time

to tell me (along with clear recommendations). Yes, propose scoring Bravo in minor as a 4. Useless to have it the same as a Charlie hit. Smaller area requires greater accuracy and should be rewarded.

[Bucky]

My opinion is stop changing the darn rules, especially when it effects equipment that people may have already purchased!!

Single Stack guys, who believe that guys with double-stack guns in Limited 10 have an advantage due to larger mag wells.

I think a true single stack shooter isn't too concerned with this. (Ask Robbie). I would much prefer shooting a single stack in L-10 than a Wide Body, especially now that someone is making 10 round .40 magazines. To me, I think the only significant advantage to shooting the wide body is the capacity. When you eliminate that, they can play on a relatively equal playing ground. As for the holsters, well as long as there are some differences between USPSA "Non-Race" holsters and IDPA's list of holsters, the gamers will still have two different holsters between the sports.

[John Dunn]

Leave L-10 alone, for crying out loud. If they want to turn IPSC into IDPA why don't they just create an IDPA division where equipment, equipment position, and how to shoot the course of fire are dictated. You could even make it single stack only. I don't think it would matter because I don't think many would want to shoot it.

As for revolver, I just don't think there are enough people shooting it to justify a new division.

[Dowter]

Dowter...to save space...I'll just say that I completely disagree with every aspect your proposal.

Apparently, you're not the only one.

[B.J. Norris]

Guess I'll speak up. Running a match, you see all sorts, Open, Lim, L10, Prod, Revo. When we got all 1/2 year credit report, we had more in L-10 than any other division. And guess what most of them are shooting out of? Strong side carry type holsters, behind the centerline. I for one, would support the change. I think it would take L-10 more to where it was originally intented to be, instead of just Limited Lite. Despite commen belief, carry gear is not the big of a disadvantage. If it was, than Dave Sevingy would not have finished 11 points behind Todd at FGN shooting minor . It's fairly easy to do sub-second draws out of a Blade-Tech if you practice. It's only about the 3rd or 4th mag that really gets you, and if the course designer is any good, you probably shouldn't be going to the 4th mag.

[SmittyFL]

I don't understand all the debate over this topic, it's very simple.

Open - Leave it alone

Limited - Leave it alone

Limited 10 - Single Stack Only, race rigs allowed.

Production - Leave it alone

Revolver - Leave it alone

A good ol' SS 1911, the backbone of our sport is the only gun that is left out under the current structure.

Now the quicker everyone gets online with me, the quicker we could get back to shooting.

Have a nice day

[Flexmoney]

Limited 10 = GLOCK Only

[Wildman]

Everybody wants a home somewhere!

[Wildman]

Oh, and leave the divisions alone. They work now. JJH