Just how good are USPSA competitors?

[VegasOPM]

How many of the USPSA competitors out there realize just how skilled they are with firearms in relation to non-competitors? It strikes me from time to time when I shoot with non-USPSA or IDPA folks how much competing has improved my shooting. Please note, this is not meant to bash anyone.

I went out shooting with one of my friends that is very gun-savvy and practices regularly in a typical range environment. A good practice session is 100 rounds and he rarely if ever does dry-practice. He can make very good hits out to 15 yards or so, it just takes a while. His presentation is slow and displays lots of wasted motion. His splits are probably a second or so, and he has never practiced shooting while moving or fast transitions. In his world, he is well regarded as being one of the best shooters at his club.

I am only a "B" shooter, and consider myself to be okay- but not in the same league with the "M" or "GM" shooters, even on my best day. In comparison, I can draw and make a hit on a 10" plate at 20 yds in about 1.7 seconds- an IPSC target at 7 yds in around 1sec. I regularly practice shooting at 35 yards, and get good hits- along with daily dry-practice. My splits are considered slow at .3 or so. Let's just say that he thought that I was the best shooter he had ever seen in person.... I explained that I wasn't even in the top 10 in my USPSA club. I mentioned that he should come out and shoot a few matches- along with practicing with me and dry-practicing at home. Before he knows it, he'll be too busy watching the "good" shooters to notice how much better he is than almost everone else he knows.

[short_round]

How many of the USPSA competitors out there realize just how skilled they are with firearms in relation to non-competitors?

It's my experience that those heading to the top are too focused on their own game to notice.

Which reminds me of a story ...

One day it was announced by the Master Joshu that the young monk Kyogen had reached an enlightened state. Much impressed by this news, several of his peers went to speak with him.

"We have heard that you are enlightened. Is this true?" his fellow students inquired.

"It is," Kyogen answered.

"Tell us," said a friend, "how do you feel?"

"As miserable as ever," replied the enlightened Kyoge.

[dsb45acp]

This is something I've always wondered about and just never asked the question. I've seen some people on the board (who are much more experienced and better competitors then I am) compare "B" class shooters to either a "blackbelt" in martial arts or SWAT types as far as general skill level goes. Do any of our resident instructors/LEO/military members agree with this?

[dcarter]

This is something I've always wondered about and just never asked the question. I've seen some people on the board (who are much more experienced and better competitors then I am) compare "B" class shooters to either a "blackbelt" in martial arts or SWAT types as far as general skill level goes. Do any of our resident instructors/LEO/military members agree with this?

I can't speak for most but I have a hard time comparing say a "M" class shooter to a SWAT officer. First a lot of the SWAT officers I know are pretty good shots but couldn't hold a candle to a lot of IPSC/USPSA shooters in the sport. However, most IPSC/USPSA shooters would be hard pressed to know all there is to know about SWAT operations. If you were comparing just shooting ability I would have to go with IPSC/USPSA shooters. Just my .02.

Edited March 28, 2009 by dcarter

[CSEMARTIN]

I took my neighbor shooting last summer. He shoots a little, and he doesn't compete. He shot maybe forty rounds total and then started putting his gear away. At the end, his response to me was, "I don't know how to comprehend what I just saw".

[JThompson]

"Everybody who reads comic books knows that Kirby Silver Surfer is the only true Silver Surfer. Now am I right or wrong?"

[boz1911]

I took my neighbor shooting last summer. He shoots a little, and he doesn't compete. He shot maybe forty rounds total and then started putting his gear away. At the end, his response to me was, "I don't know how to comprehend what I just saw".

[jasmap]

I have been in law enforcement for 11 years this year and I now work for the agency with the most Agents/officers in the United States if not the world. I can say for sure that as far as shooting goes USPSA shooters have the best all-around shooting skills. I am only an A class shooter and no one outshoots me at my station. Other shooters I have seen with skills are our PPC shooters. Rob Vadasz is an Agent with my agency and he won the Bianchi iron sights last year, beating TGO. I took him to Rio to shoot a USPSA match and Tuesday Night Steel also. He didn't have the speed but he had the skills because he never missed anything and he wasn't terribly slow.

[Sarge]

Here is another angle to consider. How many shooters are out there that could easily be the best in the world if given the opportunity? For that matter who here knows for sure they might be if they could quit work for a few years and get ammo and guns handed to them for nothing? There are most likely some natural born shooters who don't even know USPSA exists. Lets face it this is only a big sport to those of us who shoot it. When I was in the Army me and another drill sergeant buddy used to demonstrate firing positions with the M16. This guy could shoot and never miss 300 yd targets from any position. As fast as the target came up he could put it down. And he was just a hillbilly from the backwoods of West Virginia I think. I told him he should apply to AMU and he thought that would be boring to shoot all the time.

Does anybody really think there are only a handful of drivers in the world that could win a NASCAR race if given the chance?

Edited March 28, 2009 by sandman78

[kgunz11]

I have a friend that never hardly touches a pistol, and is arguably the best long range rifle shooter in the country.

I have another friend that is a pretty decent rifle shooter and handles a pistol every day of his life (he is a police officer).

They competed against each other, the guy that never handles a pistol well outperformed the guy that handles one every day.

While my LEO friend has a pistol on his side every day, he hates shooting it, and because of that his abilities suffer.

My LR rifle friend can shoot anything with sights and a trigger. He has superior fundamentals.

None of that really means anything other than some people have a natural aptitude, and some don't. Did TGO ever suck or did he just come out as a young man and start whipping folks?

[Jake Di Vita]

"Everybody who reads comic books knows that Kirby Silver Surfer is the only true Silver Surfer. Now am I right or wrong?"

Crimson Tide.

Here is another angle to consider. How many shooters are out there that could easily be the best in the world if given the opportunity? For that matter who here knows for sure they might be if they could quit work for a few years and get ammo and guns handed to them for nothing? There are most likely some natural born shooters who don't even know USPSA exists. Lets face it this is only a big sport to those of us who shoot it. When I was in the Army me and another drill sergeant buddy used to demonstrate firing positions with the M16. This guy could shoot and never miss 300 yd targets from any position. As fast as the target came up he could put it down. And he was just a hillbilly from the backwoods of West Virginia I think. I told him he should apply to AMU and he thought that would be boring to shoot all the time.

I couldn't disagree more. "Talent" has nothing to do with it. Neither does having everything handed to them on a platter. Those are the excuses of someone who really doesn't want it bad enough. Everyone wishes they had "talent" as they see it as a work free ticket to fame and stardom. "Talent" doesn't get results. Hard work and devotion does. Are there people out there who could be amazing shooters? Absolutely. But I compare that to people who say Barry Sanders could have been the best RB of all time. Sure, he could have - but he quit so he isn't.

It's real easy to hide behind excuses like "If I had more time or more money I could be really great." Funny how you never hear champions say that...usually it's because they are too busy working their asses off when everyone else is sleeping, watching tv, having fun, or plain sitting on their ass. The funny thing is, if by chance the people who make those excuses do get what they are hoping for - they will come up with another one right away. I was once told I would never become a GM because I had to shift my hand hit the mag release.

[Hank Ellis]

There are most likely some natural born shooters who don't even know USPSA exists.

Ran into that last year. There's a meet I went to last year that had you empty out the safe. One stage each of rimfire handgun, rimfire rifle, centerfire handgun, centerfire rifle, sporting shotgun, combat shotgun, machine gun, and parachute accuracy. One of my buds showed up. No guns. No ammo. Doesn't own a gun. Has maybe shot 300 rounds in his life. Borrowing my stuff he started smoking the competition. When it came to the centerfire rifle stage he borrowed my AR. He had never picked up an AR much less shot one. Took him off to the side, showed him the controls, drew pictures of where to put the sights for 100, 200, and 300 yards, and turned him loose. Took 4th overall on that stage beating some seasoned NRA High Power shooters and trained military shooters. On the combat shotgun stage he smoked me like a cheap cigar. I ended up 4th overall at the end of the competition and he was a very close 5th. Dude could go somewhere with his talent if he wanted to. But he doesn't.

I was on a business road trip a while back and brought my rig to squeeze in a bit of practice. Found an indoor range, geared up, and started a drill of draw, two shots, reload, two shots. Doing my thing, minding my business. Turned around to get another box of ammo and there were 3 people just standing there. Watching. They'd never seen anybody shoot and reload that fast. Had a hard time convincing them I'm just a crappy middle C shooter. Nothing special.

Overall anyone that competes in any game whether it's USPSA, IDPA, ATA, SASS, or any other other shooting sport is a cut above those that don't compete.

[CenTX]

This is something I've always wondered about and just never asked the question. I've seen some people on the board (who are much more experienced and better competitors then I am) compare "B" class shooters to either a "blackbelt" in martial arts or SWAT types as far as general skill level goes. Do any of our resident instructors/LEO/military members agree with this?

I can't speak for most but I have a hard time comparing say a "M" class shooter to a SWAT officer. First a lot of the SWAT officers I know are pretty good shots but couldn't hold a candle to a lot of IPSC/USPSA shooters in the sport. However, most IPSC/USPSA shooters would be hard pressed to know all there is to know about SWAT operations. If you were comparing just shooting ability I would have to go with IPSC/USPSA shooters. Just my .02.

They are resolving different problems. I bet most SWAT officers seldom need to perform a speed draw. In a SWAT operation they will start with the gun in hand.

[JThompson]

"Everybody who reads comic books knows that Kirby Silver Surfer is the only true Silver Surfer. Now am I right or wrong?"

Crimson Tide.

Here is another angle to consider. How many shooters are out there that could easily be the best in the world if given the opportunity? For that matter who here knows for sure they might be if they could quit work for a few years and get ammo and guns handed to them for nothing? There are most likely some natural born shooters who don't even know USPSA exists. Lets face it this is only a big sport to those of us who shoot it. When I was in the Army me and another drill sergeant buddy used to demonstrate firing positions with the M16. This guy could shoot and never miss 300 yd targets from any position. As fast as the target came up he could put it down. And he was just a hillbilly from the backwoods of West Virginia I think. I told him he should apply to AMU and he thought that would be boring to shoot all the time.

I couldn't disagree more. "Talent" has nothing to do with it. Neither does having everything handed to them on a platter. Those are the excuses of someone who really doesn't want it bad enough. Everyone wishes they had "talent" as they see it as a work free ticket to fame and stardom. "Talent" doesn't get results. Hard work and devotion does. Are there people out there who could be amazing shooters? Absolutely. But I compare that to people who say Barry Sanders could have been the best RB of all time. Sure, he could have - but he quit so he isn't.

It's real easy to hide behind excuses like "If I had more time or more money I could be really great." Funny how you never hear champions say that...usually it's because they are too busy working their asses off when everyone else is sleeping, watching tv, having fun, or plain sitting on their ass. The funny thing is, if by chance the people who make those excuses do get what they are hoping for - they will come up with another one right away. I was once told I would never become a GM because I had to shift my hand hit the mag release.

I agree with Jake on this one...

Max Michel has small hands and also has to shift the gun to hit the release.

On another note... no self respecting GM would ware those damn shoes you had in the exit video.

I would say it's a lot easier for some with natural ability. Matt Cheely comes to mind... I think his first classification was M when he started... not that he didn't put the time in, but I don't think he put in as much as some...

I believe if he was shooting full time and put in the hours on the range, Dave would have a tuff time beating him.

JT

Edited March 29, 2009 by JThompson

[J-Ho]

This is something I've always wondered about and just never asked the question. I've seen some people on the board (who are much more experienced and better competitors then I am) compare "B" class shooters to either a "blackbelt" in martial arts or SWAT types as far as general skill level goes. Do any of our resident instructors/LEO/military members agree with this?

I can't speak for most but I have a hard time comparing say a "M" class shooter to a SWAT officer. First a lot of the SWAT officers I know are pretty good shots but couldn't hold a candle to a lot of IPSC/USPSA shooters in the sport. However, most IPSC/USPSA shooters would be hard pressed to know all there is to know about SWAT operations. If you were comparing just shooting ability I would have to go with IPSC/USPSA shooters. Just my .02.

They are resolving different problems. I bet most SWAT officers seldom need to perform a speed draw. In a SWAT operation they will start with the gun in hand.

+1 to that. Even I out shoot most of the local law enforcement. I can bet you wouldn't want a squad of USPSA shooters showing up if bad guys were doing bad stuff. Cops who take the time to learn how to resolve law enforcement problems AND learn to shoot in a competitive environment, those guys are the ones I want called out in case of trouble.

[CenTX]

I couldn't disagree more. "Talent" has nothing to do with it.

Usually it is dedication, desire and perseverence, but I would not completely discount Talent. There are some people who lack fine motor skills and do not have fast reflexes. Practice can overcome a lot of this, to a certain extent, but not completely. Max Jr. says something about looking for shooters for AMU that are fast, he says he can teach shooting, but you can't teach fast. You can teach someone slow to be faster, but not to be faster than somebody fast that has been taught to be faster.

[Sarge]

"Everybody who reads comic books knows that Kirby Silver Surfer is the only true Silver Surfer. Now am I right or wrong?"

Crimson Tide.

Here is another angle to consider. How many shooters are out there that could easily be the best in the world if given the opportunity? For that matter who here knows for sure they might be if they could quit work for a few years and get ammo and guns handed to them for nothing? There are most likely some natural born shooters who don't even know USPSA exists. Lets face it this is only a big sport to those of us who shoot it. When I was in the Army me and another drill sergeant buddy used to demonstrate firing positions with the M16. This guy could shoot and never miss 300 yd targets from any position. As fast as the target came up he could put it down. And he was just a hillbilly from the backwoods of West Virginia I think. I told him he should apply to AMU and he thought that would be boring to shoot all the time.

I couldn't disagree more. "Talent" has nothing to do with it. Neither does having everything handed to them on a platter. Those are the excuses of someone who really doesn't want it bad enough. Everyone wishes they had "talent" as they see it as a work free ticket to fame and stardom. "Talent" doesn't get results. Hard work and devotion does. Are there people out there who could be amazing shooters? Absolutely. But I compare that to people who say Barry Sanders could have been the best RB of all time. Sure, he could have - but he quit so he isn't.

It's real easy to hide behind excuses like "If I had more time or more money I could be really great." Funny how you never hear champions say that...usually it's because they are too busy working their asses off when everyone else is sleeping, watching tv, having fun, or plain sitting on their ass. The funny thing is, if by chance the people who make those excuses do get what they are hoping for - they will come up with another one right away. I was once told I would never become a GM because I had to shift my hand hit the mag release.

I think the point got missed here. But I do agree with you as far as your opinion goes. You mention Barry Sanders to make a point. I mention NASCAR to make a point. Are there really only a handful of people in the world who can drive a race car and win big races. Absolutely not. But there are only a handful that will ever get the chance.

[bbbean]

This is something I've always wondered about and just never asked the question. I've seen some people on the board (who are much more experienced and better competitors then I am) compare "B" class shooters to either a "blackbelt" in martial arts or SWAT types as far as general skill level goes. Do any of our resident instructors/LEO/military members agree with this?

I can't speak for most but I have a hard time comparing say a "M" class shooter to a SWAT officer. First a lot of the SWAT officers I know are pretty good shots but couldn't hold a candle to a lot of IPSC/USPSA shooters in the sport. However, most IPSC/USPSA shooters would be hard pressed to know all there is to know about SWAT operations. If you were comparing just shooting ability I would have to go with IPSC/USPSA shooters. Just my .02.

A few months ago, a nearby town sent their SWAT team to the USPSA match I was shooting. Most of them had really nice equipment, if you take my meaning.

That said, most of the guys who outshot them aren't used to shooting at targets that shoot back and don't get sued if they hit a no-shoot. I think its an apples and oranges comparison.

There's also the issue of training. I've been shooting with a local narcotics officer the past couple of months, and I've been surprised at how little actual training he and his colleagues have. Outside the 1 or 2 days in the academy, the only time they're required to fire a gun is at their annual classification. He generally shoots 50-60% of my scores (I'm on the low end of the USPSA scale). Its hard to be a good shooter if you don't shoot!

[Jake Di Vita]

I think the point got missed here. But I do agree with you as far as your opinion goes. You mention Barry Sanders to make a point. I mention NASCAR to make a point. Are there really only a handful of people in the world who can drive a race car and win big races. Absolutely not. But there are only a handful that will ever get the chance.

There are only a handful that will put themselves in that position is a more accurate statement.

[G-ManBart]

This is something I've always wondered about and just never asked the question. I've seen some people on the board (who are much more experienced and better competitors then I am) compare "B" class shooters to either a "blackbelt" in martial arts or SWAT types as far as general skill level goes. Do any of our resident instructors/LEO/military members agree with this?

Shooting and SWAT skills aren't the same. A SWAT officer spends far more time learning all the other stuff than shooting skills. Every time they go on an operation they use many of those skills. They almost never use the shooting part (thankfully).

Starting from scratch I'd rather take a B-class shooter and have them learn the tactical stuff than the other way around. I've seen some VERY poor and/or unsafe gun handling by SWAT operators....you don't see that with folks in our sport.

Still, when it comes down to pure shooting skill, a C or B class shooter showing up at a police academy is going to be beyond bored with what they'll find there when it comes to shooting.

To give you an example, the hardest part of our pistol qual course (for most people) involves moving from 25yds to 15yds and firing two shots in 6 seconds. After that they stay at 15yds and fire two shots in 3 seconds from a low ready four more times....that's an eternity, but it's where most folks drop lots of shots.

[G-ManBart]

I think the point got missed here. But I do agree with you as far as your opinion goes. You mention Barry Sanders to make a point. I mention NASCAR to make a point. Are there really only a handful of people in the world who can drive a race car and win big races. Absolutely not. But there are only a handful that will ever get the chance.

There are only a handful that will put themselves in that position is a more accurate statement.

Jake, that's not really true any longer....at least as far as NASCAR goes. The kids that are just starting out in NASCAR now are in their teens and they've been racing in various other series for quite a few years by the time they get a shot at the big time. Either your family is into it or you are in one of the few places where there's local access to racing so you can find a way to get involved. By the time you're in your late teens it's pretty much too late to get started and if you don't have money or access you're done. Some kid living on a farm in rural Wyoming is either going to need understanding parents willing to move and risk it all, or find new parents.

Shooting is quite a bit different in that there's access most places and the cost to get involved is exponentially less. R,

[BlackBuzzard]

It just warms my heart to see real LEO"s out shooting USPSA.....and shooting it well.

But then again I've seen real LEO"s show up at IDPA matches and literally tag every single no-shoot.

BB

[AWLAZS]

I just spent the day on the LEO range to get re certified as in instructor. The lead guy said he was going to correct any problems developed from shooting IPSC.

He when I asked him what he meant by that he could not really explain it.

Competing requires us to perfect our skills because we want to. I only shoot once a year in uniform.

When I went to the academy 13 years ago firearms training was easy. I agree with Bart. I would rather work with a shooter with good shooting skills and work tactics then the other way around.

[Jake Di Vita]

I never said the odds aren't stocked against them.

But by and large, especially in shooting, desire is what it takes - not talent. Also, your example doesn't really take talent into consideration at all Bart. In the case of Nascar it's seems to be more like being born into royalty than born with a certain aptitude.

[CSEMARTIN]

desire is what it takes

Scott Warren said the same thing during his seminar at S&W a couple of years ago. He basically said he was willing to out work anyone more talented than himself.