What would you have done?

[Pigdawg]

During a local IDPA match this weekend a shooter had a malfunction and dropped a mag on the ground on a stage where you needed all 3 mags to finish the stage. The shooter put the gun down on a barrel while picking up the mag. His hand was not in contact with the gun while he picked up the mag on the ground. The SO for the stage is a VERY good SO and was standing over the gun/barrel to make sure it didnt point in the wrong dirrection. The SO and the shooter had a talk after the stage was over.

[Merlin Orr]

Did he ask the SO if he could do so? I am not a Good SO and would have done the same thing as you describe unless something else was done that endangered the shooter, SO or anyone else.

[HSMITH]

If it was safe and he stayed within 3 feet of the gun I wouldn't say a word. If he moved more than 3 feet away DQ. I know that this is per USPSA rules but it is fair and USPSA rules pretty much set the standard for the other games out there. If the shooter felt that a DQ if issued was out of line he can plead his case to the match director. If the gun is out of the holster it is loaded, period, if the shooter leaves the immediate area of a loaded gun he/she should be DQ'ed.

[waktasz]

I couldn't find anything in the rulebook saying that he can't do that. (during my admittedly quick 5 minute search)

Edited December 15, 2008 by waktasz

[Steve J]

You certainly can not justify any sort of penalty within IDPA rules. Without being there I think it was probably handled appropriately. I see inexperienced shooters not maintain a full firing grip all the time, but it's usually during loading that they switch hands or set the gun down to fish for magazine or bullets. I coach. Sometimes it helps.

[midvalleyshooter]

Sometimes you gotta say, "no harm, no foul".

Keith

[texbran]

Sometimes you gotta say, "no harm, no foul".

Keith

I'm the md for the Louisiana state match this year and last. I don't think he did anything wrong as long as he pointed it in a safe direction. Thats probally not the best way to retrieve a droped mag but he didn't hurt anybody or didn't break any rules that I know of.

Louisiana State IDPA March 7 2009

Edited December 15, 2008 by texbran

[RickB]

I would like to know why the shooter put the gun down? I would never feel "safer" with the gun sitting somewhere other than in my hand.

[steel1212]

So what if he laid the gun down on the ground? Would that be any different than a dropped gun? NOT saying he should be DQed just asking a question.

Edited December 16, 2008 by steel1212

[Kyle O]

I've shot stages where the gun has to be placed on a table loaded, to retrieve a back up gun. As long as control was maintained, I see no harm in this.

[revchuck]

So what if he laid the gun down on the ground? Would that be any different than a dropped gun? NOT saying he should be DQed just asking a question.

The difference is that there was no loss of control of the gun; assuming the gun was safely placed down facing downrange, rather than completing a couple of loops and landing on the hammer with the muzzle pointing at someone.

[shooterready]

When I RO shooters I always tell them never to take a shooting grip off the gun. Well never is a long time, but you get the point.

[Jane]

Not having been there, it sounds as if it was done safely.

I've seen too many shooters get flustered and lose muzzle-awareness when they need to deal with a distraction such as a dropped mag or a piece of brass down the shirt and cover their hand or do something else scary.

[Pittbug]

Was the gun loaded when he did this? Were safeties activated (if applicable?) if it was loaded?

I personally wouldn't do this because I prefer to be 100% in control of the gun, so it's either in my hand or in my holster.

On a side note, if during the course of fire, there's a malfunction, is it ok to holster a loaded gun, fix whatever issue you have, draw and continue the stage?

[JerryC]

I'd rather they were safe than chastise for not holding the gun. Many people need assistance to stand or to keep their balance when bending over, bad knees for example. This scenario is alot better than the guy that points the gun behind him while he bends over.

[Ed Deegan]

I was the SO on the stage. I did not shoot the match, just SO'd. Thank you Scoty for your compliment.

To lay the background: This was a local match and it was the annual team match that is now in it's second year. The team matches are varying but are stand and blast stages, with shooters either shooting alternately or concurrently depending on the stage requirements. This match is really about having fun with tremendous amounts of trash talking occuring. On this stage the shooters are standing next to a barrel that is separating them from each other as sort of a starting position. This stage is lim vick with each shooter shooting one round at 6 targets then their partner does the same and so on for a total of 18 rounds fired by each shooter. Mags were downloaded to 6.

The shooter is fairly experienced, and his partner is a newcomer (probably less than 5 matches). The shooter is average middle aged guy and no real physical infirmities that the rest of us don't have. Anyway, the shooter had a malfunction, and got very frustrated and put his handgun on the barrel, hard enough that it (the gun) bounced. Muzzle was about 45 degrees and he started loading loose rounds into his magazine. Shooter then picked up his handgun and finished stage.

I have seen a lot of weird and odd things running shooters in the past (like everyone else), but his temperment at the moment of his malfunction as well as his partner's inexperience and just not having seen anyone put a handgun on a prop mid-stage admittedly scared me a bit, especially hard enough for it to bounce. Yes the gun was at slide lock, but murphy's law never stops. I did not dq the shooter in question, but with a team match and the unique safety requirements that we can all envision, all the while side by side with another shooter, my personal safety requirements go way up.

[Duane Thomas]

Okay, now the situation becomes clearer. I would have a real problem with the whole "starts loading rounds into his magazine" thing. You're only allowed to use in the stage what you start with in the gun plus two spare magazines. Fishing in your pockets for extra ammo is SO not an option.

[RobMoore]

Anyway, the shooter had a malfunction, and got very frustrated and put his handgun on the barrel, hard enough that it (the gun) bounced. Muzzle was about 45 degrees and he started loading loose rounds into his magazine.

Wasn't there, but that is pretty descriptive. People need to get control of their emotions when dealing with dangerous weapons. I wouldn't go so far as to DQ the shooter, but I'd have stopped him right there. He tossed the gun down, he was done shooting. Whatever targets remained would get the obligatory -5 or -10 FTN. Hopefully that would be lesson enough for the shooter to keep himself in control of things. Malfunctions happen. Clear them and move on. Misses happen, shoot better. No excuse for letting these things cause you to be less safe than you should be.

[00bullitt]

Okay, now the situation becomes clearer. I would have a real problem with the whole "starts loading rounds into his magazine" thing. You're only allowed to use in the stage what you start with in the gun plus two spare magazines. Fishing in your pockets for extra ammo is SO not an option.

Are you sure? I don't have a rule book handy to verify but I thought it was just two mags on the belt. Mags in the pocket were fine as well as loose ammo.

Personally I see nothing wrong with setting the gun down safely and staying within arms reach of it. Sounds like it was at slide lock and pointed in a safe direction so it was safe at the moment. USPSA has rules for this instance as USPSA has a much more definitive rule book to govern the sport. IDPA has always had a more subjective type rule book which I personally think needs alot of revision.

[RobMoore]

Its two spares period. You don't get to spray and pray through 31 rounds and then go to spares in the pocket.

You said it yourself "setting the gun down safely". Like I said, I wasn't there, but the description given was "tosses the gun down in frustration". I don't think those two descriptions are synonomous.

[SDM]

Ed, Bubba

Did he just pick up a magazine or did he load extra rounds? Did he only have two mags? If he had three why was he loading loose rounds on a limited stage?

On a side note "Ed and Bubba", weren't they the cousins on the Dukes of Hazzard?

[Duane Thomas]

Are you sure? I don't have a rule book handy to verify but I thought it was just two mags on the belt. Mags in the pocket were fine as well as loose ammo.

You can have other mags on your body - I would imagine loose rounds, as well - but you can only use the ammo in the gun and two spare mags during the stage.

[9x45]

I would have stopped the shooter at the point where he had the malfunction and not waited until he put his gun down and it bounced off the table. Yes you can have extra mags on your person, but only for the purpose of loading the 'Barney round' at the start. Once the clock starts you may only use the 2 mags on your belt, even if you use the same mag twice (like shoot 4, retained mag change, shoot empty, then back to the partial mag, but not load loose rounds (in an auto). Of course in this case the COF specifies only 6 in each mag, so it's mute. However, I would have given the guy a re-shoot since it's not a State, Regional or Nationals.

[buddy_fuentes]

I would like to know why the shooter put the gun down? I would never feel "safer" with the gun sitting somewhere other than in my hand.

Hmm, I feel safer with no one near the gun, I've never seen one shoot without help. In the competitor's hand there is always a chance for a discharge. Just wondering, why didn't he reholster and go back to the lost mag? That would seem more natural than looking for a good surface to place your pistol. JMHO.

Buddy

[kdmoore]

reholstering on the clock makes me a LOT more nervous than having the gun in hand.