3Gun Rules Poll

[el pres]

Same as polls 1 and 2 !!

See poll 1 for explanation ....

These are what I can think of so far but when I think of more I'll add them !!

Edited November 22, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[kurtm]

How far we have come from the orriginal intent of "He Man"!!! It was what you might want to really go into a gun fight with. 308 rifle, 12 gage shotgun and .45 pistol. At no time was Pump requiered, at no time was a 8 round restriction applied. It has morphed into the abomination of Single Stack, Pump shotgun, and 20 round limit and NO SCOPE. WTF?? I was there when Ed Rhodes came up with the idea. And My Brother was the M.D. When it was introduced at the first RM3G. Pretty soon we will be wearing big old shooting coats and have a nice little range bag/seat to hold our stuff in, and a big old glove on our hand! KurtM

[Merlin Orr]

The whole deal is for the heavy rifle and big bore (.45 acp) pistol. Relax the rules to include autoloader shotties and watch the class grow.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Merlin Orr

[el pres]

The whole deal is for the heavy rifle and big bore (.45 acp) pistol. Relax the rules to include autoloader shotties and watch the class grow.

You defenitly have good point but for myself it's the new rifle, mags. and overly expensive ammo that keeps me

from playing !!

[Chris Rhines]

He-Man should not exist as a division. Instead, there should be enough of an advantage in scoring that one might want to shoot a major-caliber rifle instead of a .223.

We have too many divisions.

- Chris

Edited November 23, 2008 by Chris Rhines

[Merlin Orr]

He-Man should not exist as a division. Instead, there should be enough of an advantage in scoring that one might want to shoot a major-caliber rifle instead of a .223.

We have too many divisions.

- Chris

That would work. The .308 is a harder hitter and also harder to hit with. 1A OR 1C neutralizes with the same 2 anywhere rule would make it a closer horse race with the .223.

[Rookie]

I would expect to be able to meet the requirements for "He-man" division with a Revolver. Restrictions should be limited to caliber and maximum rounds allowed in a magazine.

[el pres]

I acually goofed the choices as I belive a lot of matches state .44 or larger...

That said I think Kurt made a really good point of the original intentions of He-Man vs.

what it has become.

We all have ideas but I think choices should be driven by popularity ...

How about a "Vintage" division ??? M1 Garand, MilSpec SingleStack, and an 1897 Pump, ???

Edited December 2, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[ChristianHE]

Yeah, I shoot major rifle, and I love how they screwed that over by ignoring the major power factor and stipulating .308 or larger for "Heavy Metal"

I also will never shoot "Heavy Metal" or he-man because of single-stack requirements. All the gang members have 19 round magazines so why wouldn't I? I know- go ahead with the "I'll get 'em on the first shot BS" -try that when you're being shot at.

Agreed- major/minor is enough.

He-Man should not exist as a division. Instead, there should be enough of an advantage in scoring that one might want to shoot a major-caliber rifle instead of a .223.

We have too many divisions.

- Chris

[davidwiz]

As I understand it, the whole point of He-Man a/k/a/ Heavy Metal was for the use of "large" calibers. What I don't understand is why a lot of matches that have this category mandate that you must use a pump-action 12ga. A 12ga is a 12ga, be it pump-action or semi-auto. If you want to score the pump and semi separately, that's OK. But don't force people to buy yet another gun (i.e. a pump) just to compete in the category.

[AlamoShooter]

I don't see my self shooting any division when the "Restrictions" consist of a list.

If you can afford it and Carry it =Shoot It If It makes a Big Hole favor the score

I also like the scores combined too Overall Finish should mean just that. = What equipment setup was the fastest and worked to solve the problem.

I like it when several shooters can look at a problem and come up with the best way to Bully the Stage into submission.

Rules are good, making a pile of restrictions on equipment is not progress

Jamie Foote

I have to add, I am new to 3gun and this is just my prospective from the outside looking in.

But when I looked IN over the years, I made a pass at trying 3gun after looking at restrictions that ruled out equipment that worked The Best

Edited December 17, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[kellyn]

Then why even have seperate divsions if the equipment is going to be mostly the same? What's the point? If I can shoot a 30 round scoped FAL with 110 grain bullets, a high cap .45 with 150 pf loads and a Benelli semi auto, why not just put me Tactical Scope? I'll still be competitive. Why even have Heavy Metal?

If we are going to have a Heavy Metal division, I am all for a pump shotgun requirement. Let's look how scoring both semi and pump in Heavy Metal worked at SMM3G. Yaah, I won but did I really? I shot a semi auto and only shot a couple of stages heads up against the guys shooting pump shotguns. They (Pat, Tate etc.) whooped my butt on those couple of stages but for the rest of the stages (8 I think) had shotguns so I was scored seperate from them. We were hardly shooting the same match yet I am declared the victor? I don't think so. They shot better on the stages where we actually competed heads up but I was just luckier or smarter in what shotgun I chose. What a mess.

Kurt, I don't believe we have to be bound by some original framer's intent as to "He-Man." We are not talking about the Constitution. Again, what is the point of all these divisions if the equipment is pretty much the same? I think Heavy Metal should reflect increased difficulty by increasing the amount of recoil the shooter has to deal with as well as reducing the mag capacity.

When I am Diktator, Heavy Metal will be

.308 (or equivalent) rifle with a TESTED power factor of 360. I'll even allow scopes since only 10 guys shoot iron sights anymore. Rifle will have a sling. Don't care about mag capacity but 20 might be a good idea as some .308 rifles have easily available 30 rounders and others do not.

Pump Shotgun with 5 round magazine. A real "riot gun." But I could be talked into an 8 +1 gun.

.45 ACP/.44 pistol: 8 rounds or 10 rounds max. I don't care which. No single stack requirement. 180 power factor TESTED.

No shooting coats or glove required - unless your last name is Miller

Or just get rid of Heavy Metal and make .308s competitive by requiring one C hit or better on paper.

[benelli2]

Kelly, hit the nail on the head on one point for sure, none of this he man heavy metal BS is real until someone wants to go through all the trouble of chronoing and making sure that all those guns are shooting real ammo, down loaded 45's and 308's are not much tougher to control than mouse guns, and for the few shooters playing that division it isn't worth dragging out the chrono

Having a class/ division for every possible combination someone wants to shoot just dilutes prize tables and increases difficulty of scoring and logistics for matches. So where are you trying to go? What's the end game, increase participation in a division, increase match effort or increase what? If a match wants to do it so be it, but I don't think it inceases overall match participation at all

my .02

jc

[sslav]

I do not know what the original intent of the HM division was. Looking at the .308 iron only/12Ga Pump/.45 Singlestack version, its intent seems to be to put together the most non-competitive combo. If that indeed is the goal, then its fine as is. If the goal is something other than that, it should be changed or maybe it should just go away.

It would be nice to have a balanced major/minor scoring for rifles. But since we are yet to achieve a balanced major/minor scoring for pistol, it is unlikely to happen. What is likely to happen in attempting to do that is that major will become THE way to go in rifle (just like it is THE way to go in pistol wherever allowed).

[kurtm]

Geeze Kelly!, get some coffee or something!

First off the "original intent" part of my post was to show how far we have gotten from the roots of H.M. It was meerly to point out how restrictive it has become and continues to become. Now for your history lesson for the day!

Do you know why H.M. became a "pump" division? Well at the time, 2003, I was doing the rules for RM3G. I asked the people who would shoot H.M. (not a poll thrown out to all, of which over 90% would never shoot H.M.) what they wanted, they wanted it to be a "pump shotgun" (just like the one issued at work or under the bed). I asked about pistols, and all replied it should be a 10 round limit so S.S. (you know, like a lot of guys really carry) guns could be used on equal footing with Glock,s and STI,s. They wanted a 20 round limit on rifle mags, and DIDN'T want scopes so it wouldn't just turn into an AR-10 class ( it is hard to scope M1-A,s, FAL,s etc.) Now think about this! Here we had a Match that was ASKING the customer what they wanted, INSTEAD of telling competitors "the way it will be".

Many of the rules you see in 3-gun today came from the founding four of RM3G in conjunction with Dan Furbee ( IMGA/SMM3G). Such as "tac optic"...one optic of any kind instead of the "aprroved list of scopes", Shotguns...any barrel length and load only 9 at the start, (Instead of 22" barrel and extention 1" past). We all were constantly asking the shooters what they wanted, both real world tactitions and gamesmen. Are all these rules set in stone?? NO, but the people who ACTIVELY shoot the division should be the ones with the input, not the guy who says....well I never intend to shoot 3-gun, but the rules should be....

Now that should hold you for a while Mr. KN3, and I will put on My coat..and my gloves as it is -12 here today KurtM

BTW Some of the rules we changed show your input as well.

[bigbrowndog]

the best point from all that rambling was that you cannot increase participation in a certain division without decreasing participation in another, UNLESS!!!!!! you increase the match participation.

So more classes/divisions does nothing but dilute the competition.

lets start a lever action rifle, single shot pistol, bolt action shotgun division, because it will attract, ALL those people that own those guns!!!! (I'm sorry you guys can't see that my SARCASM light is blinking)

Oh yeah,.................I HATE POLLS!!!!! I can't wait to hear from my nemisis, Poll Dancer!!!!!!

Trapr

[kellyn]

Don't you mean Pole dancer?

[P.E. Kelley]

Then why even have seperate divsions if the equipment is going to be mostly the same? What's the point? If I can shoot a 30 round scoped FAL with 110 grain bullets, a high cap .45 with 150 pf loads and a Benelli semi auto, why not just put me Tactical Scope? I'll still be competitive. Why even have Heavy Metal?

If we are going to have a Heavy Metal division, I am all for a pump shotgun requirement. Let's look how scoring both semi and pump in Heavy Metal worked at SMM3G. Yaah, I won but did I really? I shot a semi auto and only shot a couple of stages heads up against the guys shooting pump shotguns. They (Pat, Tate etc.) whooped my butt on those couple of stages but for the rest of the stages (8 I think) had shotguns so I was scored seperate from them. We were hardly shooting the same match yet I am declared the victor? I don't think so. They shot better on the stages where we actually competed heads up but I was just luckier or smarter in what shotgun I chose. What a mess.

Kurt, I don't believe we have to be bound by some original framer's intent as to "He-Man." We are not talking about the Constitution. Again, what is the point of all these divisions if the equipment is pretty much the same? I think Heavy Metal should reflect increased difficulty by increasing the amount of recoil the shooter has to deal with as well as reducing the mag capacity.

When I am Diktator, Heavy Metal will be

.308 (or equivalent) rifle with a TESTED power factor of 360. I'll even allow scopes since only 10 guys shoot iron sights anymore. Rifle will have a sling. Don't care about mag capacity but 20 might be a good idea as some .308 rifles have easily available 30 rounders and others do not.

Pump Shotgun with 5 round magazine. A real "riot gun." But I could be talked into an 8 +1 gun.

.45 ACP/.44 pistol: 8 rounds or 10 rounds max. I don't care which. No single stack requirement. 180 power factor TESTED.

No shooting coats or glove required - unless your last name is Miller

Or just get rid of Heavy Metal and make .308s competitive by requiring one C hit or better on paper.

I was not even going to weigh in on this subject because I am just f'ing tired of the "floating rules" that govern HM, but once again Mr. Neal is absolutely spot ON!

Heavy Metal as Kelly describes and as Mr. Miller set-up and ran at the original RM3Gun is for my money THE way to run the division!

Or if we must as Kelly mentions eliminate HM and go with ONE "C" Hit for verified MAJOR cal Rifles!!!

And for what little it may be worth other than the two times that I have faced Mr. Neal on the field of battle I have won the HM division in every match

that I completed since 2005 and ALL of my ammo was Major Power Factor +. Factory 7.62x51 Military Ball and 45acp CCI Blazer 230 ball.

And since I do not think it has been mentioned elsewhere I would like offer a BIG congratulations to Kelly (I can win any division) Neal on his win at the

Benning 3gun! You may very well be the best all around 3 gunner extant.

OK, now back to my cave.

Patrick

[RiggerJJ]

PEK,

just to let you know, RM3G isn't planning to change anything about HM.

It would be nice to see your face in '09 at RM3G...for once

jj

now back to your cave...

Edited December 18, 2008 by RiggerJJ

[bigbrowndog]

No Kelly, Poll Dancer is Dogs Bolux's 2nd cousin by way of marriage with his sisters brothers neice????????

Trapr

[kellyn]

Pat, thanks for the kind words!

[barrysuperhawk]

bump for vote

and the HM rules:

Since I run my own matches, I *am* diktator, so to speak.

Heavy metal should be:

Single stack pistol, .45ACP. OR .44 or larger Revolver. No GAP [GAP is the devil, even worse than .40]! 175 PF

12 Ga. Pump Shotgun, 8+1.

.308 winchester or above, Iron sights, 20 round max, no mag cinch, Sling attached, no comps or brakes unless they are original to that rifle.

All reloads and ammo carriers worn for entire match, no mix and match and re-configuring on each stage. Thigh holsters and vests allowed, but if you can carry ammo there, there has to be ammo there when the buzzer goes off. Empty mag pouches at the buzzer are 10 sec procedurals [except loader mags]

Essentially, I think Heavy Metal / He-Man should be restrictive, tough, and require more of the competitor than the other classes.

That said, I have relaxed many of those rules at my own matches in the interest of participation.

Most common relaxation of these rules is allowing a hi-cap .45 pistol, although when I do that it's out of a Safariland level 2 retention holster.

I have also seen a scoped M1A allowed in HM just because the guy won the gun .... Whatever dude..

Edited February 9, 2009 by barrysuperhawk

[Jim Norman]

The preceding post sound like combining Trooper and HM. they are two different competitions. Trooper means carry it all, all day. HM refers to the gear you shoot he match with.

That said, for me HM is: rifle: 308, 20 rounds, Irons (but I might have to bend that one as I have trouble seeing at distance anymore), pistol: 45ACP, 10 round +1 in gun to start, couldn't care less SS or Double, shotgun: 12 ga pump, 8+1 max, chokes OK barrel length OK.

For barrel length, I use stage design, that 48" 20 shot tube might be a real problem in some places. Oh well.

Trooper, you carry everything ALL DAY and that means when taping targets too. NCRecon does a pretty good job with this.

[Chuck Anderson]

Single stack pistol, .45ACP. OR .44 or larger Revolver. No GAP [GAP is the devil, even worse than .40]! 175 PF

no comps or brakes unless they are original to that rifle.

All reloads and ammo carriers worn for entire match, no mix and match and re-configuring on each stage. Thigh holsters and vests allowed, but if you can carry ammo there, there has to be ammo there when the buzzer goes off. Empty mag pouches at the buzzer are 10 sec procedurals [except loader mags]

That said, I have relaxed many of those rules at my own matches in the interest of participation.

Most common relaxation of these rules is allowing a hi-cap .45 pistol, although when I do that it's out of a Safariland level 2 retention holster.

I have also seen a scoped M1A allowed in HM just because the guy won the gun .... Whatever dude..

So first, what is wrong with .45 GAP? Is it the platfrom that shoots it or...

Second, so if I spend the money to buy a more expensive rifle, say the DPMS LR308L I can keep my comp but if I want to shoot a CMP Garand I'm hosed?

If you make everyone carry everything all day you target smaller, and women shooters who may not have the belt space for everything.

And finally, I'm not surprised you have to relax rules to gain participation. I wouldn't be coming to any match run this way. If the rules "need" relaxing to get people to come, maybe you might want to look at the rules in the first place. I can't imagine a new shooter showing up with his M1A and being told he has to run iron sights and a single stack 1911 in the division and then seeing a wide body .45 and a scoped M1A running around.

[h2osport]

I like the rule of 45 acp 10+1 , 308 rifle, 12 gauge pump8+1. I like to shoot to increase my proficiency with all of my guns and to have fun. If you want to shoot another combination of guns that would be fine with me you just would not qualify for prizes. I have shot my pump in tactical. I certainly cannot shoot my Pump as fast as my semi so I was at a disadvantage. I did not win anything, but I had a blast. I am pretty new to three gun so my view might be skewed. As for the power factor, seems like a spirit of the game issue. I am not going to shoot 3 1/2 magnums in my shotgun, but I am not going to shoot reduced loads in any of my guns either.

At our local matches, there are quite a few people shooting heavy metal and none of them are complaining.