7 & 8 Shots, suggestions **Poll added**

[jmax]

Mike I thought that you thought that Far & Near was the single most shooting challenge available? Or do you just not like that challenge? I shot my first IRC with a 4" 25 and a cane to get around. That my friend was a real challenge.

[Tom E]

if you're the kind of shooter who looks at a big tough field stage and says "man, I sure wish they would have made this course 6-round neutral" or "man, I sure wish I had two more bullets in my gun for this one," you don't understand.

I grumble, but I like shooting revolver better than shooting a semi-auto. Wouldn't mind having an open revolver class, 8rds optics, comps. But not if it eliminated the existing class.

I really grumble about classifiers with revolver idiotic mandatory reloads. Revolver should be exempt from mandatory reloads.

Pins is best.

[slflr]

Those of us who choose to shoot USPSA revolver on a serious basis are not doing it because it's easy. We're pushing ourselves, challenging ourselves--if you're the kind of shooter who looks at a big tough field stage and says "man, I sure wish they would have made this course 6-round neutral" or "man, I sure wish I had two more bullets in my gun for this one," you don't understand.

+1

[S&WIowegan]

I have an innate dislike of rules that seek to exclude equipment that is readily available. I also love "equipment races" because this is what leads to lots of people trying different combinations to see what works best. I have open, limited, SS, production and wheel guns and enjoy them all. I started shooting IPSC in 1990 and the changes have been enormous. Barnhart had just discovered dots in Ipsc and Para had just introduced the wide body. Good thing USPSA found a way to accomodate all this change, HUH!

Now to Patrick's question. I would love to see both open and limited revo classes. Do not assume this is a ZERO SUM game. It never is. We would surely attract some ICORE shooters to open class. More is better for sure. Remember.....between elections our esteemed president of USPSA could care less about revos. We currently have a problem struggling to get over 30 revos at the Nats. Let's be willing to try ways to grow. I don't think the current philosophy espoused here by some who only want six-shot iron sight guns in the game is the way to grow!!

Bob

A16841

[slflr]

I like to think of ICORE as another revolver "division". That way, I get to shoot "Limited 8, minor" or "open 8, minor"on Saturday and "limited 6, major" on Sunday. I like it that way.

[revoman]

I think we all understand the challenges that revolver shooting demands whether it be 6, 7, 8, major, minor, stock, open, USPSA or ICORE. That is why we all choose to shoot revolvers. If USPSA chooses not to recognize 7 and 8 shots so be it, shoot ICORE. The big difference is that ICORE accepts 6, 7 and 8 shots. You can shoot 120 PF or 200 PF, open or stock and the rules are simple and easy to understand and ICORE clearly is and will probably be the only shooting game (and yes it is a game and a hobby to most participants as 95% or more who shoot ICORE and USPSA do not do it for a living and if they did they would be awful hungry including me) that is truly dedicated to revolver shooters.

Now on the other hand if you want to shoot strictly 6 rounds, compete mano-e-mano with major loads and shoot courses of fire designed for guns that carry 28 rounds and do not mind the low numbers that show up for local, area and national matches or the fact that you are basically ignored at area and national matches then USPSA is your flavor.

Now to set the record straight I shoot both ICORE and USPSA and I enjoy both very much and have made friends at both competitions and I will continue to shoot both no matter if anyone can agree if they should let 7, 8 or open revolvers in USPSA. I would love nothing more than to go to USPSA Nationals and have 40 to 70 revolver shooters that ICORE regionals pull in or 200 + revolver shooters that the IRC brings in. Wouldn't that be something if 250 revolver shooters showed up for USPSA Nationals and you only had room for 100 auto shooters, Tulsa would never be the same. (something about them revo shooters you gotta love)

Can that happen, yes only if people are willing to accept challenges, changes and go against the norm and try something different that will bring in more revolver shooters instead of trying to alienate the 2 different disciplines.

In closing I want to say if I offended anyone that was not my intent and I am sorry. But we need to quit bickering and try to figure out how we can make both of these disciplines grow and have them around for our young shooters.

Dean Gomez

[Carmoney]

Mike I thought that you thought that Far & Near was the single most shooting challenge available? Or do you just not like that challenge? I shot my first IRC with a 4" 25 and a cane to get around. That my friend was a real challenge.

Naw, the only thing I said about Far and Near is that I don't think the same damn stage (regardless of what stage it happens to be) should be included in the IRC year after year after year. I only said they should mix it up and have a different standards from year to year, so that people who try to "groove it in" don't gain so much of an advantage. Change the distances, par times, whatever--shake them boys up a little.

Otherwise, I like the course fine, and I'm actually fairly decent at it.

[Carmoney]

I really grumble about classifiers with revolver idiotic mandatory reloads. Revolver should be exempt from mandatory reloads.

And yet oddly enough, we are seeing huge inflation in the USPSA Revolver classifications, even though some of the classifiers appear to be nearly impossible to run efficiently with a revolver. I don't know what they're doing with that crazy computer in Sedro Woolley, but everybody and his frickin' brother is hitting M and GM these days....

[Carmoney]

I would love nothing more than to go to USPSA Nationals and have 40 to 70 revolver shooters that ICORE regionals pull in or 200 + revolver shooters that the IRC brings in. Wouldn't that be something if 250 revolver shooters showed up for USPSA Nationals and you only had room for 100 auto shooters, Tulsa would never be the same. (something about them revo shooters you gotta love)

You know how we could make that happen? Have a stand-alone USPSA Revolver Nationals. Rob Leatham and Shannon Smith and all those guys know how to shoot wheelguns. Hell, I watched Todd Jarrett walk over and buy a North Mountain Moonclip Holder from Bob Perdue! The problem under the current structure is a whole bunch of the most dedicated USPSA shooters in the country are already committed to shooting a different match while we're having our Revolver Nationals. Make it a stand-alone match, and tons of people will show.

[Pin Shooter]

I agree.

[Rogan]

Ok, I'll jump back in with an idea.

Let's make a one year test experiment in revo division. After the 2009 Nats, the rest of the year including through Nat 2010, lets have 6major and 8minor guns with the same rules as currently supplied. The only change is to offer the 8minor revo.

By giving it a full year and a nationals test, we (I repeat, we the shooters) can make an objective decision 1) if there really is an advantage 2) how big or small that advantage is and 3) we might draw some more shooters to the game and to nationals.

If single stack can do/try it, why can't we? The 1911 guys are some of the most diehard equipment dedicated guys I've ever met, no disrespect intented. Many of them know what they like and so they stay with their chosen format. But they were able to change their rules and include more shooters in their division. Why can't we?

Rich Brethour

ICORE AZ1735 A

USPSA A59928 B

[ffl]

I agree with some of the ideas. I do like the 6-major 8-minor but does that make the 7 shot guns obsolete? no make it 6 major 7+minor. and everybody wins.

[steel1212]

I would love nothing more than to go to USPSA Nationals and have 40 to 70 revolver shooters that ICORE regionals pull in or 200 + revolver shooters that the IRC brings in. Wouldn't that be something if 250 revolver shooters showed up for USPSA Nationals and you only had room for 100 auto shooters, Tulsa would never be the same. (something about them revo shooters you gotta love)

You know how we could make that happen? Have a stand-alone USPSA Revolver Nationals. Rob Leatham and Shannon Smith and all those guys know how to shoot wheelguns. Hell, I watched Todd Jarrett walk over and buy a North Mountain Moonclip Holder from Bob Perdue! The problem under the current structure is a whole bunch of the most dedicated USPSA shooters in the country are already committed to shooting a different match while we're having our Revolver Nationals. Make it a stand-alone match, and tons of people will show.

Oh Oh Oh, Limited/Open, L10/Production, Revo/SS!!! Na that would make to much sense....

sorry for the drift...carry on.

Edited October 22, 2008 by steel1212

[jmax]

We had Robbie at the IRC a couple of years ago and yes he can really shoot a revolver.

[cliffwalsh]

We had Robbie at the IRC a couple of years ago and yes he can really shoot a revolver.

Tartan shot the IRC a few times too. I think most of the big dogs can shoot a revo; especially the ones who have been around a while. Shannon Smith beats me with a revo most of the time. I know, so does every one else so save the cheap shots. He might shot revo at the nats if it was ever separate from Limited.

[mrmetalweld57]

I could live with 8 shot as minor except for one thing, I've gotten too old and I can't see open sights. Makes an open class look better to me. An 8 shot with a dot on top, and my sti is for sale. My 2 cents. Ed

[cylindrically challenged]

I shoot several different types of matches with my 8 shot 627. My club host NRA Action matches which are minor power factor. I shoot at Briar Rabbit Shooting Sports where I'm allowed to shoot my 627 as an 8 shooter in revolver class. I need about a 135 power factor at Briar Rabbit. And I shoot Steel matches at my club also using 8 shots at minor power factor. I'm comfortable with my 627 because I use it to it's full capacity at all my matches. The odd man out is USPSA. I have a 625 but the bullets cost almost twice as much as 38s, and it's difficult to get decent velocity out of a .45 at minor power factors. So my 625 sits in the gun safe. I'd love to see USPSA adopt " 6 major 7 & 8 minor" I'd get to shoot the revolver that I use for all of my other matches in USPSA at power factors that I use at all of my other competitions. By the way on Nov. 23 I'm going to Lexington Ky. to shoot Silvercreek's ICORE match because I can use the same revolver that I use for all of my other matches at the same power factors that I use at all of my other matches.

[Flexmoney]

Just to bump this idea back up....

Re-reading this whole thread, it sure seems like quite a few revolver shooters would be in favor of trying out the format of:

Major...up to 6

Minor...can go past 6

?

Note: I added a poll to the opening post. Please give this thread a good review and vote in the poll.

[R112mercer]

I voted no. Like Mike Carmoney I'd hate to see our Division lose membership because there's too many brands of mustard to choose from.

I play a bunch of games, especially ICORE and steel. Last year at an ICORE match I chose to shoot my 625 because my 8 shooter still had a scope on it (I'm an iron sight guy). Outside of a squib on stage 1 I don't think it held me back at all, I even think I was faster (easier reload).

At the PSA they changed the rules and won't let 8 shooters in stock class. I use my 625 and again I feel I'm faster.

Most good wheelgunners can hit what they aim for. If you can't you're hosed in our game because you don't have a bunch of extra rounds to make up mistakes. Like someone else on here said, the extra two or minor scoring will only help if the stage accomodates it.

Lets face it, if you like revolvers you're gonna have a couple of them and it's not hard to get you to buy another one (like anybody on here had to have their arm twisted to buy another gun "Gee honey, do I have to get this new gun in a different caliber to play a new game, can't we save the money for a rainy day!"). The ICORE guys that don't play USPSA don't play for a reason, and it's unlikely we'll get them unless we bend over backwards and radically change our game, which I don't want to see happen.

[Flexmoney]

I voted no. Like Mike Carmoney I'd hate to see our Division lose membership because there's too many brands of mustard to choose from.

Yikes...I hope you weren't thinking the idea was to split off into another division? I don't think anybody wants that. It would never fly.

The idea is one division of revolver. Everything the same, just allowing great than 6, but with Minor scoring. If you want to shoot Major...gotta stick with 6.

[Bubber]

I voted undecided, although I woould like to try the 8 shot in USPSA Revolver using all 8 shots. Scoring minor is not a disadvatage for me as I already shoot minor in the 6 shot revo. In 2008 Rogan suggested that we try the experiment in USPSA of anything over 6 shots scored minor and only 6 shot could be major if passed Chrono. It did not seem that many of us took up the opportunity to do so. Let's face it it is hard to fill a squad at any of the larger matches (Sectionals, etc.) with a revolver shooters. There may be many of us here at the Enoverse but locally usualy only one or two will show up at a match. In OKC we have a slightly larger following and can get upwards of 6 to 7 at a local match. If we wish to try the experiment it would have to be done at the local level to get the news out to the shooters that have the 7 or 8 shot laying around and wishing to try it. It would be easier to talk the local matches into letting this happen and collecting whatever pertinent data available, not so much which gun won 6 or 6+ but on the increase in turn out and if it may trasfer on to the larger matches. As I have an RO class tomorrow I can discuss it with a couple of revo shooters and a match director there. Who else is willing to try the exercise? Later rdd

[R112mercer]

I voted no. Like Mike Carmoney I'd hate to see our Division lose membership because there's too many brands of mustard to choose from.

Yikes...I hope you weren't thinking the idea was to split off into another division? I don't think anybody wants that. It would never fly.

The idea is one division of revolver. Everything the same, just allowing great than 6, but with Minor scoring. If you want to shoot Major...gotta stick with 6.

Gotcha. Some of the posters (maybe from a while back) where talking of the idea of Open Revolver and such, just wanted to make it clear that I was opposed to yet another Division.

As for the pure 6 major vs 8 minor inside the existing Division I still say no. I don't think it would attract more shooters necessarily (esp. the ICORE crowd, see my previous post), and you would basically have the rest of us bringing two guns to the match and gaming the stages the night before to see which gun would be better suited.

Like Bubber said, minor doesn't hurt him that much, and I don't think it would hurt many of the other top Revolver guys. The real advantage would be stages that have lots of 8 shot arrays or tricky steel (Texas stars, et al). If a stage can be more easily split up into 6 shots the faster, more reliable reload of the 625 would be more beneficial.

As to what Bubber said of trying it out at level 1 matches on an outlaw basis for scientific reasons, sure, why the heck not. But lets not go to the BOD just yet.

[JoshF]

Re-reading this whole thread, it sure seems like quite a few revolver shooters would be in favor of trying out the format of:

Major...up to 6

Minor...can go past 6

I don't see this as anything other then a positive for the smallest division in USPSA.

1. Bring in more shooters from another shooting sport (ICore)

2. Break up the single gun class AKA 5" 625's especially considering they aren't currently in production.

3. Bring in a competitive minor option for those who either A have the equipment or B can't shoot minor due to build or other issues (wrist/hand injuries).

4. Build in more options on how to shoot a stage OR match therefore adding to the challenge.

Honestly these are good things for ANY division but considering the small turnout for revolver at most USPSA matches this would be even more beneficial. Now the question I have is how are changes like this proposed to the USPSA board and subsequently voted on? I seriously doubt anyone's going to take notice and just propose it... someone has to be the "Voice" and know where to apply it.

[JoshF]

One more thing... There definitely needs to be a test of this to see if it's lop-sided in any way on a large level as others have said. I can't recall anyone taking this on yet. Would one of the annual "outlaw" Revolver only matches make a great test for this? Heck make it a Charity match that way if it turns out a one-sided disaster there's still a good cause benefiting

Edited February 26, 2010 by JoshF

[ChrisC]

i'd rather see a split division.. open revo and limited revo... open 6+ shots and optics Limited iron sights and 6 shots... same pf for minor/major and the limited open divsion